Oldman's Views On The Massive Economy

[OldManJ98]

If you play on this server, you are probably aware that the majority of players are upset with the economy. Most items have little or no value on this server. During my time as a player, I have seen the price of a stack of diamond blocks fall from about 1000r (100 silver) to about 500r. Lore items seem to be the only items retaining their value. Even the once booming real estate industry has crashed. The main reason for this is the deflation of the regal. With the introduction of faction tax, I would like to "Old Man's Quick Analysis of the Economy":

-The price of rare elements and metals are to darn low. The diamond and god supplies specifically have reached low points. The only solution would be to remove the supply, which would need voluntary distruction from players, an unlikely feat.

-The lore item industy remains strong. Players still strive to collect special objects and drinks to brag to their friends and boost their role play experience.

-Regalian Real Estate has drastically decreased in value. I blaim this on three factors: Greed, Growing Supply, and Forum Changes. The greed of the sellers caused prices to skyrocket, and then drastically fall when the buyers woke up and realized they could buy for less. The staff adding more houses has increased supply, so unless a house is special, it has most likely dropped in value. Finally, moving the auctions off of the home page of the forums has made them less noticeable to many players.

-The economy of god armour, weapons, and other pvp items still remains at good level, although it has fallen slightly. This does allow more players to enter the pvp scheme.

-There are more money drains than feeders in the economy. Faction creation (although lowered), LWC, warzones, Regalian rent, and now taxes all take regals out of the system, while only voting, mobs, quests, and premium pay put money in. The feeders also put in regals in much smaller amounts than the drains take out:

Drains:

1. Warzones: 5000r a chunk
2. Factions: 2000r reduced to 100r
3. LWC: 10r per lock
4. Rent: 80r (poor district) 100r (graves) 200-300r (common) 400r(jail)
5. Taxes: #of chunks * .1r daily

Feeders:

1. Mobs: 1r per mob
2. Voting: Usually between 10-50r, can be more. Usuallt get no regals
3. Quests: Lots of variation
4. Premium: 750r a month

These issues could only be solved with staff action. Although the server does have a very capitalistic enviroment, the staff do intervene slightly as shown. However, for the needed inflation to occur, staff intervention would be required. Possible solutions I have thought of:

1. More IG contests, with Regal prizes. Preferably over 1000r
2. Monthly salary to all players... say 250r. Non-prems would have a steady source of income, and prems would now my making 1000r per month. More player would also be inclined to rent houses, which would take this money back out of the system while rebirthing the real estate market.
3. Weekly lotteries where players can enter for a small fee, and win more alot of regals. Could allow for more roleplayers to get money, as the survival community tends to have the majority of the money.
4. Add PAYING roleplay jobs to Regalia. Currently, bar tenders have the only paying jobs. Opening up roleplay shops, like bookstores, smithies, and groceries, could add new role play items and provide new sources of income. These stores could sell exclusive items like the Golden Willow drinks.

Finally, Massive Tax is good for the economy. Of all the money drains, it is probably the most fair and effective. It will increase faction size, and hopefully suck money away from the rich who already have a lot, while letting the poorer people keep their money. It will also, in a way, penalize factions who claim more land than they need.
There was my fast thinkings. Enjoy!

 

[Osowiec]

I have too much spare time, so I made cute little diagram things on how the different economies look like.

Rare Elements & Ore

Spoiler

Lore Item Industry

Spoiler

Regalian Real Estate

Spoiler

PvP Equipment

Spoiler

Economy Feeders & Drainers (Use caution, this is an odd format.)

Spoiler

Maybe I have too much time, maybe I made the graphs wrong by mistake. But, you know what. It's the brain that counts.

 

[Alj23]

I can say that despite assumptions that the "PVP market" is good and dandy, it isn't. Fishing allowed the production of so much god armor and god weapons that it's crazy. The current price of a set of god armor is around 650-800 regals, which translates to 65-80 silver. This is considerably low, seeing as god armor used to be sold at 2,000 regals, or 200 silver minimum. A unbreaking 3 book could be sold at 700-800 regals in the old economy, but now you only see them being sold for around 100-150 regals.

 

[BenRekt]

Respectfully I disagree - we need to filter out more regals from the system so prices of things like god armor and god weapons will get out of the toilet in terms of how much you can sell them for.

 

[thepikaqueen]

I don't think Massives economy is good at all right now. In fact, it kind of sucks. I don't think there should be a monthly salary, as for the moment it's hard to find a Regalian house, and considering a lot of them are around 250, it'd just make even less houses available. Although I do think we really need more RP jobs. If you're not a bartender you're pretty much screwed, unless of course you want to spend a few hours grinding mobs or go out doing quest after quest after quest after quest. I get that Massive wants to make premium super worth it and all but we need a little more love for those of us who can't afford it. I say we need IG paying jobs like bookstores, markets, smiths, blacksmiths, pawn shops and etc. Plus more contests and things.

 

[MonMarty]

I'll give a quick link reply on "Old Man's Analysis of the Economy" which I personally find shortcoming, uninformed and wrong.

Your assumptions on the money sinks and additions are wrong, just look at the Stats page: http://www.massivecraft.com/massivemoney-day. We don't have a median for the effects of taxes, but before that the economy got out daily with an increase of 20,000 average.

Your analysis towards resource gathering and management don't correspond to modern economic models or ethics. I'm a general prescriber of the Three-sector theory, and I think it's high time that people realize that they are stuck in the peasant mindset and need to adapt to a server economy that is going trough a transitional period. One could even say we've already gone trough the transitional period and are moving into the tertiary period, if Alj129's statements on the prices of processed goods such as enchanted armor is correct.

On a last note, you're also very wrong on Real estate. Real estate is still a very profitable business, supply has nothing to do with the demand, location is everything. High rise or houses close to the tavern still fetch thousands of Regals.

Saying the staff need to fix the economy is lazy and ignorant.

 

[Tokuu]

The idea of Massive's economy is that it is ENTIRELY player driven. Every single shop is made by a player, and everything that can be done to make regals is done by players, not by the moderators. Pumping money into the economy won't solve our problems, it will just devalue the currency. Things don't need to cost more regals, they need to cost a greater percentage of the total regals there is. Just increasing the amount of regals in the economy themselves won't solve anything. A decrease in supply would lead to an increase in demand, but no one is willing to stop mass supply in order to recover the economy, because they would lose out of potential sales, while no one else will pull out. The lower the supply of things, the greater the demand, and after over a year since fishing was completely nerfed, we are still seeing the effects of it now. I cannot comment on the housing and RP aspects, as I have little experience here, but I know that if there is a high demand for an item, prices will go up. So, if you really want the economy to recover, study it. Figure out what is selling and raise the prices. Go with the demand, rather than trying to create your own

 

[dragonixsparton]

All of the Regals are being sucked into a money drain and going nowhere, all the people with thousands of Regals do not care much for this, but I do think the taxes do help, but there needs to be things done about this, diamond is being sold for 1r with 16 diamonds. This is just crazy.

 

[iRampageFTW]

lol. if the economy change , u fight with it.
just like in the real world.
We fight for money.
we observe the change.
we climb to the top.

 

[dragonixsparton]

The idea of Massive's economy is that it is ENTIRELY player driven. Every single shop is made by a player, and everything that can be done to make regals is done by players, not by the moderators. Pumping money into the economy won't solve our problems, it will just devalue the currency. Things don't need to cost more regals, they need to cost a greater percentage of the total regals there is. Just increasing the amount of regals in the economy themselves won't solve anything. A decrease in supply would lead to an increase in demand, but no one is willing to stop mass supply in order to recover the economy, because they would lose out of potential sales, while no one else will pull out. The lower the supply of things, the greater the demand, and after over a year since fishing was completely nerfed, we are still seeing the effects of it now. I cannot comment on the housing and RP aspects, as I have little experience here, but I know that if there is a high demand for an item, prices will go up. So, if you really want the economy to recover, study it. Figure out what is selling and raise the prices. Go with the demand, rather than trying to create your own

Click to shrink...

You also make a very good point, players are the only ones who put money in, and the currency would be devalued.

 

[dragonixsparton]

I'll give a quick link reply on "Old Man's Analysis of the Economy" which I personally find shortcoming, uninformed and wrong.

Your assumptions on the money sinks and additions are wrong, just look at the Stats page: http://www.massivecraft.com/massivemoney-day. We don't have a median for the effects of taxes, but before that the economy got out daily with an increase of 20,000 average.

Your analysis towards resource gathering and management don't correspond to modern economic models or ethics. I'm a general prescriber of the Three-sector theory, and I think it's high time that people realize that they are stuck in the peasant mindset and need to adapt to a server economy that is going trough a transitional period. One could even say we've already gone trough the transitional period and are moving into the tertiary period, if Alj129's statements on the prices of processed goods such as enchanted armor is correct.

On a last note, you're also very wrong on Real estate. Real estate is still a very profitable business, supply has nothing to do with the demand, location is everything. High rise or houses close to the tavern still fetch thousands of Regals.

Saying the staff need to fix the economy is lazy and ignorant.

Click to shrink...

If you look at it from another side, this can turn into an ugly mess, he is right, only people who have donated for months and months can afford things. New players are going to see the worse from this.

 

[Madus]

Your assumptions on the money sinks and additions are wrong, just look at the Stats page: http://www.massivecraft.com/massivemoney-day. We don't have a median for the effects of taxes, but before that the economy got out daily with an increase of 20,000 average.

Click to shrink...

Assuming MassiveMoney statistics are correct (which I do assume I have no reason not to) what you say is also correct. But if more resources are pumped into the economy than money, deflation will occur. Deflation does occur on MassiveCraft and I believe it is for this exact reason. However I cannot know, because I do not have access to statistics about resources gathered.

Your analysis towards resource gathering and management don't correspond to modern economic models or ethics. I'm a general prescriber of the Three-sector theory, and I think it's high time that people realize that they are stuck in the peasant mindset and need to adapt to a server economy that is going trough a transitional period. One could even say we've already gone trough the transitional period and are moving into the tertiary period, if Alj129's statements on the prices of processed goods such as enchanted armor is correct.

Click to shrink...

While this three sector theory does makes sense. How does it apply on MassiveCraft? I see that MineCraft and real world economies tend to be VERY different on some areas.

On a last note, you're also very wrong on Real estate. Real estate is still a very profitable business, supply has nothing to do with the demand, location is everything. High rise or houses close to the tavern still fetch thousands of Regals.

Click to shrink...

Some houses might give money. But not all does. At a time people where willing to pay 1500+ regals for a house almost no matter location. So I beleive this business have been more profitable but sill is.

Saying the staff need to fix the economy is lazy and ignorant.

Click to shrink...

Why? Almost all decisions the staff takes does affect the economy. If deflation keeps occuring (which it does) it might be because of how the server is set up and not the players fault. McMMO makes it a lot easier to get materials, so removing that will make prices raise (or deflate less).
Saying the server economy is is COMPLETELY player driven is not true. Because everything the staff does affects the economy.
Adding traits for example. Made it easier to mine because of Haste. Causing the supply of mining materials to rise (supposedly) and the prices to fall.
The players themself do not have the power to change the economy beacuse it is based upon a misbalance of materials gathered & money pumped into the system. This misbalance can almost only be changed by reconfiguring plugins.

 

[OldManJ98]

Follow up post!

Click to shrink...

I should have made that clear in the OP, that was only how the staff COULD fix it, but players should take a front seat.


Now, for my player fixing suggestions:

Spoiler: Warning

These solutions will only succeed with sacrifice, specifically in the most wealthy of players. Even though all members of the server can help, the real important fixes need to occur on a large scale, a scale only the wealthy have.

-Price fixing:On major issue with the market is the low price of minerals, specifically diamonds. If everyone agreed to sell at, say 10 regals per diamond, the prices of goods across the economy will increase.
-Resource deflation: Going along with above post, if the surplus of diamonds was decreased, the market will also inflate prices. I suggest group diamond burnings, and I may be hosting one soon. I have already burned over 120 diamond blocks, well over 1000 diamonds. The same applies to all inflated goods (God Armour, emeralds, gold, etc.)
-Increased spending: This is directed at the money hoarders out there. There is no reason why you need over 20k regals, unless buying a huge faction or castle. You have the power to increase the supply of money being used on the open market! The best part of this is that by helping in this way, you can receive items as compensation, or even, this is crazy, buy at a higher price to raise prices on the server! If you want to be super cool, you can buy diamonds at a high price, then destroy them, and be a small economy hero!
-Increased economic activity of the roleplay community: Guys, lets face it, the pvp region of the server basically runs the economy. There are many ways roleplayers can help contribute to fixing the economy, however:
1. Obviously, all above reasons.
2. Darkrooming more, to increase the regal volume. This will also help your stats, making it easier for you to defend yourself when raided, and complain in alliance chat for help and hide in Regalia! Pvp can actually be fun if you give it a shot
3. Raising the market prices for roleplay items and houses. Those are the major roleplay markets

Oh! And if someone really wants to help the economy, they can do all 4 things AND share their massive regal banks with the poor to help stimulate the economy.
@Terence29

 

[Madus]

Follow up post!

I should have made that clear in the OP, that was only how the staff COULD fix it, but players should take a front seat.


Now, for my player fixing suggestions:

Spoiler: Warning

These solutions will only succeed with sacrifice, specifically in the most wealthy of players. Even though all members of the server can help, the real important fixes need to occur on a large scale, a scale only the wealthy have.

-Price fixing:On major issue with the market is the low price of minerals, specifically diamonds. If everyone agreed to sell at, say 10 regals per diamond, the prices of goods across the economy will increase.
-Resource deflation: Going along with above post, if the surplus of diamonds was decreased, the market will also inflate prices. I suggest group diamond burnings, and I may be hosting one soon. I have already burned over 120 diamond blocks, well over 1000 diamonds. The same applies to all inflated goods (God Armour, emeralds, gold, etc.)
-Increased spending: This is directed at the money hoarders out there. There is no reason why you need over 20k regals, unless buying a huge faction or castle. You have the power to increase the supply of money being used on the open market! The best part of this is that by helping in this way, you can receive items as compensation, or even, this is crazy, buy at a higher price to raise prices on the server! If you want to be super cool, you can buy diamonds at a high price, then destroy them, and be a small economy hero!
-increased economic activity of the roleplay community: Guys, lets face it, the pvp region of the server basically runs the economy. There are many ways roleplayers can help contribute to fixing the economy, however:
1. Obviously, all above reasons.
2. Darkrooming more, to increase the regal volume. This will also help your stats, making it easier for you to defend yourself when raided, and complain in alliance chat for help and hide in Regalia! Pvp can actually be fun if you give it a shot
3. Raising the market prices for roleplay items and houses. Those are the major roleplay markets

Oh! And if someone really wants to help the economy, they can do all 4 things AND share their massive regal banks with the poor to help stimulate the economy.
@Terence29

Click to shrink...

While I do ant these things to happen. I have a few short comments.
Price fixing. Never going to be a hing on such a large community.
Resource deflation is a temporary fix. People will easily gather new materials and the staff is to [insert reason] to make resource gathering more difficult.
Increased spending is only going to be a thing if people need/want something. But getting most things are easy, so why? If there where more different items and it was more difficult to gather everything yourself. It might happen. Again players can only change something by sacrificing their own wealth.
If specialising was a thing so it wasn't worth it to get everything yourself. It might fix several of these problems. But that is not going to happe with staffs current POV on the economy. As always the economy gets worse and the staff does nothing but blame the players.

 

[OldManJ98]

While I do ant these things to happen. I have a few short comments.
Price fixing. Never going to be a hing on such a large community.
Resource deflation is a temporary fix. People will easily gather new materials and the staff is to [insert reason] to make resource gathering more difficult.
Increased spending is only going to be a thing if people need/want something. But getting most things are easy, so why? If there where more different items and it was more difficult to gather everything yourself. It might happen. Again players can only change something by sacrificing their own wealth.
If specialising was a thing so it wasn't worth it to get everything yourself. It might fix several of these problems. But that is not going to happe with staffs current POV on the economy. As always the economy gets worse and the staff does nothing but blame the players.

Click to shrink...

Don't blame the staff either. The players did cause this mess, primarily in the old fishing days