Yay More Meta Talk About White Knights, What Is Win-rp's Definition, And More! Nonsense Discussion

[Conflee]

Hello! So, this is another mostly rambly thing. Dont take anything too seriously here, im not trying to start fights im just kind of, throwing views around, for open discussion. (thats all I ever intend anything to be most of the time lol) . Some of the examples might be extreme, or dumb, A lot of this might be stupid, im not sure. Talking about things is the best way to figure them out though, soooo. Disucsssiooon.

So my first kind of, question. Is trying to get a solid grasp on the concept of what Massive defines as 'Win-RP'. As near as I can tell, it seems to be a gray area between powergaming and poor OOC conduct, where you attempt to further your IC goals through excessive OOC methods? Im probably really badly off the mark but I have only heard Win RP used by players, and once on the forums in a simi official manor, on the Trustee Rejection Citation page where it does nothing to define it. So im at a lose coming up with a definition myself.
Just going to leave that here as a, 'can anyone clearly define this first then ill talk more?' point.

Spoiler: rambly and stupid

My second, probably controvertial set of things comes in the open use of terms like White Knight IC and OOC, and how they are often, even if subconsciously 90% of the time, seemingly used for meta ends. Just to throw out an example, which has happened to me and I brought up a similar topic before in my last post: You walk into the Corpse and Gutter and see your friend being attacked. You attack his assailants from behind, and begin the fight. The other players toss out the term "White Knight" ICly.

I have a few issues with this- specifically the use of White Knight by characters in Roleplay. Firstly, White Knights are... the good guys? They are stepping in, and yes, yada yada ignoring the OOC stigma, they are the people acting on morals. Calling someone a white knight is like admitting you're the bad guys, which nobody ever does. Nobody really thinks they are the bad guy in any situation, even the worst arsehole you have ever had to deal with in life probably thought they were justified. So its just, not really right. Beyond that, even if the term was only used OOCly, it still holds that 'Win RP' edge. The only reason to call someone out for White Knighting publicly is to try to shame them into voiding their actions, which I have seen people try to do before (void their actions due to call out like this that is). The same could be said about throwing around terms like Win RPer or Godrp etc publicly as well. It only serves to further meta-aligned ends. If you really think there is an issue with someone's RP, it should in my opinion be taken directly to PMs, or if necessary after that, to a Ticket. Making it a scene is a bit of poor conduct, after all if could just honestly be a series of mistakes or failures. I have some nights where I cant manage to Combat RP for the life of me and I end up looking like a moron. Everyone does. And the final point of this example is the fact that if you are calling someone out OOC about it, you are assuming that they have absolutely no reason to be interrupting the fight and you are escalating things for no reason. In the example, my character is a friend of the other character. That's justification to step in.

I guess thats my rambling aside. The real thing that I am asking here is opinions on the matter, and a firm solid definition of Win RP as used by staff. You have to know what to avoid to well, avoid it. Should be defined on the wiki in rules or something. idk. im tired so eh lol

 

[FireFan96]

Win-RP is when you as a player completely refuse to lose a fight even though logic and circumstance say otherwise. Example, you're an off duty guard (oh heck, on duty even) and you enter the slums. Some people ambush you. There is no good chance said guard can defeat all of those foes at once, so having them power through with "superior weapons and armor" is win-RP.

alternatively, win-rp also happens in groups as well. For example, let's say that you have someone surrounded, only you forgot to close a small gap in your lines. the surrounded individual then emotes an ombratore blood dance to run out from that gap. To then emote closing the gap would be win-rp, because the group as a whole decided that this person is captured regardless of circumstance, even though logically that ombratore blood dancing is superior to any reflexes. While the situation could go either way, the ombratore player gets to choose.


I define white knighting as purposely getting involved in law enforcement without rights, just for the sake of getting involved and helping someone out. This reward is something you crave either IC or OOC, or both. I attempted to put an example down for this, but honestly the only thing I can think of is helping some random commoner from being attacked even though you don't know who the heck they are. While it can be justified if it's happening right in front of you and you feel morally wrong about such an action taking place, it becomes white-knighting if you actively seek out crimes in the hopes of stopping them. If you want to do that, go apply to be a guard and then get the rights to do that. But until then, don't try to take the law into your own hands unless the situation absolutely demands it.

 

[Reaganism]

attempt to further your IC goals through excessive OOC methods

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That's metagaming.

Win RP is when you prioritise positive outcome from an RP scene over the roleplay content. It's something all of us do to a degree and most often arguments about win RP are just arguments between two people trying to win-RP and push their agenda on the other. It's a mess and it's hard to moderate.

White Knights are characters that always take a morally right perspective from a modern, 21st century view. Though in the greater sense, white knights can also be defined as characters that always "come to the rescue" and to "prevent bad" and thus to prematurely end storylines.

I think the emphasis is on the latter one. There's a lot of roleplayers who don't spark storylines on their own, but "intrude" and insert themselves into whatever they see with the sole goal of being the "hero" and reaping the glory associated.

So in a way, being a white knight is win-roleplaying, though win-roleplaying doesn't mean being a white-knight.

If you want to do that, go apply to be a guard and then get the rights to do that. But until then, don't try to take the law into your own hands unless the situation absolutely demands it.

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The worst white knight I ever encountered was doing it all as a guard. I'd ask the criminal RPers about it, but when I roleplayed a gang member back in the day I preferred ICly corrupt but OOCly sound guards over white knights because they just provided six times as much RP.

 

[Conflee]

The worst white knight I ever encountered was doing it all as a guard. I'd ask the criminal RPers about it, but when I roleplayed a gang member back in the day I preferred ICly corrupt but OOCly sound guards over white knights because they just provided six times as much RP.

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I like when there is a mix or morally 'white', 'gray', and 'black' guards honestly. Its no fun to just have rampant corruption without some good guys on the inside to spark internal conflict. Though, generally corruption does lead to a few more opportunities at times, especially for criminals interacting with the guards.

Win-RP is when you as a player completely refuse to lose a fight even though logic and circumstance say otherwise. Example, you're an off duty guard (oh heck, on duty even) and you enter the slums. Some people ambush you. There is no good chance said guard can defeat all of those foes at once, so having them power through with "superior weapons and armor" is win-RP.

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Win RP is when you prioritise positive outcome from an RP scene over the roleplay content. It's something all of us do to a degree and most often arguments about win RP are just arguments between two people trying to win-RP and push their agenda on the other. It's a mess and it's hard to moderate.

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That was infinitely helpful and I have no idea how I didnt make this connection in my head.

As can probably be assumed by the fact that I was bringing it up, it is an issue I allegedly have, though knowing the definition solidly now I have a hard time seeing how, given my main (Conf) used to lose 3/4 fights he got in, and I self imposed consequences on myself repeatedly IE the loss of one of his arms and more recently offering kill perms to the Violets after he was captured.

Would be handy to have that slapped on the wiki in the rules section that is relevant either way so players can tell without having to scour the forums.



As far as the topic goes though, as has been implied repeatedly in my last few threads (this one and the one about me shelving Conf Ladveer) im trying to improve how I go about RP and sort out any OOC issues, so ill drag this around and ask if anyone has an example of me Win Rping as per above definitions I would love to know. Im not going to get triggered or salty- I might defend it if I think its a gray area but otherwise like I said, wanting to get better, work on cleaning up my image a bit, and sort out how I want to proceed on Massive in general. So, have at me! lol

Edit: And yes I know how ironic it is to ask people to call me out here while above I also say that call outs in public are usually only to serve meta ends, but eh.

 

[Reaganism]

So, have at me! lol

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I like to attempt to predict results of certain IC actions before I take them, both OOC and IC consequences. To me, hardest are decisions where a decision is sort-of forced ICly but it has obvious negative OOC consequences.

In light of this, think about Conf's actions in regards to Fort Loyalty. Those actions summarise most things I like to preach about win RP and general breaches of OOC conduct: that they aren't well-received by others, and that at the same time they have indirect consequences that have characters end up worse than without win RP.

Conf sort-of led the slums defence and was captured. In his capture, he used a clever way to escape without any major issues. That's what happened ICly.

OOCly, it was heavily implied that anyone can escape the slums battle without being caught, and those being caught are done so that they can attend the dragon event. With this in mind, you sort-of had yourself captured with the heavy implication of no-maim, no-death already in the pack from the captors' side, and then escaped for the sake of it.

Expectation, I think, was that this'll make Conf look powerful or untouchable. The consequences were a character's non-literal death though, due to the natural repercussions to win-RP.

Had Conf not escaped, he'd have been questioned. This would have allowed chance #1 for a possible redemption arc, him revealing himself truly and asking for pardon perhaps. A missed RP opportunity. Another missed opportunity was him facing Hamelin d'Vaud and having some quality roleplay discussing how he had been a leader in the slums all along and perhaps asking for forgiveness, paving way for redemption arc #2. He could have denied all charges, and then escaped along with the rest of the slum dwellers. This would have revealed his identity still, but would have retained his chances at redemption. Yet one more opportunity could have been taking a redemption path but continuing his work in the slums never the less, allowing you roleplay opportunities outside the slums without compromising your slums RP. Yet another opportunity would have been escaping and not being caught in the first place, retaining the status quo.

Instead, his escape proved to (at least) 2 officials in the fort that he is in fact in league with a sought-after death mage, and all you derived from the whole event was the denial of any possible redemption to the character and roleplay with a single person before you used the spell and disappeared.

Naturally, the events had consequences and the spell's definition and rules were changed appropriately.

Though think about the route @Magivore took in the situation with Ichabod. He was captured, questioned, became subject to a spell (with his consent, afaik) and then escaped proper with no maim or damage whatsoever. His tenure in the fort generated roleplay for two charters, caused an hour and a half long interrogation and further discussions, and allowed a generally slum-dwelling and out-of-sight-to-law character to interact with nobility and the Sancella (and at the same time, allowed @Magivore to RP with us where normally we probably wouldn't ever meet in RP).

 

[Conflee]

OOCly, it was heavily implied that anyone can escape the slums battle without being caught, and those being caught are done so that they can attend the dragon event. With this in mind, you sort-of had yourself captured with the heavy implication of no-maim, no-death already in the pack from the captors' side, and then escaped for the sake of it.

Expectation, I think, was that this'll make Conf look powerful or untouchable. The consequences were a character's death though, due to the natural repercussions to win-RP.

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Thats part of the issue. My character would have been there, thats his nature, and his role at the time. I made a minor blunder OOCly in not having him retreat early enough, and he was surrounded. I talked it out with the two "guard-role" players involved who had him cornered, and since they had spent the whole event fighting him, despite my initial desire to have him just fall over a railing and limp to safety, I was convinced that their effort warranted him being captured, on the condition his face be so beaten in that he should be almost unrecognizable. That way his identity was kept safe without robbing the players of their accomplishment. At the time, it had slipped my mind entirely that he had a Curse of Banishment prepared, as it was intended for a Progression Report that never got sent in. So when it was brought up that he was captured, and given that several characters working with the Death Mage seeing it happen, the curse was activated. I will admit though, I asked to delay it slightly because I hoped to give a cool one liner before he vanished. It felt really anticlimactic to not say something at least.

Its also worth noting the whole 'face mangling' thing went out the window and he ended up being recognized later by Vulmar anyway and was then recaptured.

Thats my little defence of that, though I do see the point your making. It was a bit too... perfect, and I doubt my OOC excitement at how cool the moment turned out helped anyone's opinion of it. (my hands were literally shaking right after and I went on an excited ramble about it in a group chat afterwards lol).

Edit: should clarify the reason I wanted his identity to remain a secret for a while longer was I had some idea of a plotline I wanted to act out and plan for his reveal, but eh it works out either way.

 

[Reaganism]

Thats my little defence of that, though I do see the point your making. It was a bit too... perfect, and I doubt my OOC excitement at how cool the moment turned out helped anyone's opinion of it. (my hands were literally shaking right after and I went on an excited ramble about it in a group chat afterwards lol).

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In a sense though, and in light of all possible outcomes that were possible at the time, the actions fit the definition:

Win RP is when you prioritise positive outcome from an RP scene over the roleplay content.

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And the origin of the issue:

I made a minor blunder OOCly in not having him retreat early enough, and he was surrounded.

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Is white knighting.

My character would have been there, thats his nature, and his role at the time.

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It was heavily implied that the event itself is intended for those who want to be captured, as it was announced so in event chat. Yet still a lot of people fought us there "for the sake of it" before fleeing.

 

[Wumpatron]

Thats part of the issue. My character would have been there, thats his nature, and his role at the time. I made a minor blunder OOCly in not having him retreat early enough, and he was surrounded. I talked it out with the two "guard-role" players involved who had him cornered, and since they had spent the whole event fighting him, despite my initial desire to have him just fall over a railing and limp to safety, I was convinced that their effort warranted him being captured, on the condition his face be so beaten in that he should be almost unrecognizable. That way his identity was kept safe without robbing the players of their accomplishment. At the time, it had slipped my mind entirely that he had a Curse of Banishment prepared, as it was intended for a Progression Report that never got sent in. So when it was brought up that he was captured, and given that several characters working with the Death Mage seeing it happen, the curse was activated. I will admit though, I asked to delay it slightly because I hoped to give a cool one liner before he vanished. It felt really anticlimactic to not say something at least.

Its also worth noting the whole 'face mangling' thing went out the window and he ended up being recognized later by Vulmar anyway and was then recaptured.

Thats my little defence of that, though I do see the point your making. It was a bit too... perfect, and I doubt my OOC excitement at how cool the moment turned out helped anyone's opinion of it. (my hands were literally shaking right after and I went on an excited ramble about it in a group chat afterwards lol).

Edit: should clarify the reason I wanted his identity to remain a secret for a while longer was I had some idea of a plotline I wanted to act out and plan for his reveal, but eh it works out either way.

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Your summarization of events shows the justification. You should never twist and try and shift roleplay to fulfill a "grand arch". The implications in your post means you view Conf to be this great story character, who is not subject to the rules as everyone else. That he is a plot device and not a player, which is incorrect. The idea that certain characters have to be used for plot development is incorrect. Anyone can achieve anything with enough dedication and commitment. And even then, incidents will occur which can cause failure. That is development.

Perhaps the greatest issue is you hoping to give a one liner before vanishing. That just shuts down the entire sequence of events. If Conf were discovered he would have faced a great many consequences. Yet, you wanted to avoid this all together and then leaving an ill humored one liner to devalue the scene. There could have been extreme development. By working around it OOC and wanting to create humor out of it, you Win RP'd a scenario to save Conf from any repercussions. You even stated that he forgot about the Curse. IC Conf should have been fearing for his life.

Do you see what I am saying?

 

[Conflee]

It was heavily implied that the event itself is intended for those who want to be captured, as it was announced so in event chat. Yet still a lot of people fought us there "for the sake of it" before fleeing.

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I think it was better that way though. It turned into a much more dramatic affair because instead of being a one sided raid it turned into a rather awesome battle. And even if half of the people fled, half were captured still. Marty even said in OOC at the Fort they only expected like ten people not thirty. So in the end I see that as a win-win. But im getting slightly off topic.


A little bit of further context to some of my and my character's decisions though. My character felt the need to rally a defence because the Slums were threatened. Its not so much a moral high ground thing of defending the weak for him then as it was, 'they are going to burn the place its another Crimson Purge oh shit'. His little spurt of bravery and determination ended pretty quickly when the front line broke however, which is when I intended for him to flee. He was, at that stage, a coward. He was captured prior (a month or so?) by the Devout Few and imbued with cowardice by a Soul Mage played by.... Bioverse? I think. So as soon as his life was at risk, he had a desire to get the hell out as fast as he could. But by then due to me spacing out, it was a bit late. So I just played things out as they happened.

Edit: in retrospect as well that only fuels how shit my response to capture was. I really bunged that all up

The theme I am getting though, and something that has come to mind though I have not worked on it enough at all, is that I probably should have sat back and thought things out more before acting. Which I will try to do moving forwards. Part of that stems from the character itself- Conf was my first character and he was a lot like me. Too much like me actually. It made him easy to roleplay in a casual social setting because I just had him tell jokes. And that was originally what I intended for him. I had little to no real aim for higher beyond a vague goal of 'become beggar king' that was in a background but never prevalent until a few key moments. But when it started to pick up traction and he was required to make more serious decisions my own personality got in the way of his.

Perhaps the greatest issue is you hoping to give a one liner before vanishing. That just shuts down the entire sequence of events. If Conf were discovered he would have faced a great many consequences. Yet, you wanted to avoid this all together and then leaving an ill humored one liner to devalue the scene. There could have been extreme development. By working around it OOC and wanting to create humor out of it, you Win RP'd a scenario to save Conf from any repercussions. You even stated that he forgot about the Curse. IC Conf should have been fearing for his life.

Do you see what I am saying?

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I do. I didnt think the situation through thoroughly enough, and acted more on impulse than thought. I heard something about execution and kind of panicked a little, but thats not much of an excuse.

I didn't see Conf as a major important thing though. Well. I kind of did kind of didnt. I had hopes for it, and I felt the hopes were slowly starting to come around. I think some of my overzealousness during the entire thing was a bit emphasized by how much was happening all of a sudden after a draught. Really Slums RP kind of got dull really fast after the new gang system was announced to be in the works and stuff was put on hold. People tried to keep it going a little but the gangs started dropping like flies. Then suddenly there were guards at the gates! And a battle! And exciting things! I dont want to try to use it as too much of an excuse but it was a contributor I think in some ways.

I have heard around that having a general arc in mind is a good thing though. Having some kind of aim. I let the aim get in the way of the actions leading up to things though in retrospect.


Either way, what I have gotten so far has been helpful! Anything else, just keep laying it on me. Im going to need time to reflect more but its a start to better things I hope.

 

[Wumpatron]

A final bit of perspective to think on. Do not have a planned arch. If things occur in rp and you can find short term ways to create it, that's good, that's development. But do no plan an entire arch. That creates situations like what you described. Where your character /has/ to escape. Where they have to conveniently fall over a rail despite being outnumbered. You are not alone in this. There are other people and you escaping so conveniently cheats them out of their roleplay.

In regards to the situation, I understand, because I did it before, I quite literally laughed death in the face and Marty put it into perspective for me. I have taken that and shifted the perspective here. Let things flow naturally. Don't try and find ways OOC to avoid it, accept the situations as they will likely provide more depth and overall development than whatever you have planned out. You can never achieve development on your own, you need to be subjected to it and must never seek it out. Things happen and you adapt, you change, you grow. That's how you make your character grow and that's how you create dynamic roleplay.

Think on it and good luck. I know anyone can change so I give you the benefit of the doubt.