Of Rock Lizards, Bows And Vampires.

[_Grimmy_]

This is written on a phone so disclaimer for spelling and formating errors.

Power gaming or potential for abuse is often cited as an excuse to prevent certain items, however it's really not a good reason since almost all of the preexisting and allowed items can achieve far worse cases of powergaming than for the most common example The Qadir Rivet Bow which, funnily enough, is just a takedown bow, but things like dakkar, although somewhat balanced at the start of the rewrite have become really, really broken with the buffing of their legs. "Ah! But they're slow." I heat you say, but speed means jack shit when the thing can charge across a room and punch your head off. We can also take the way easier to abuse thing of orcs and school of graklak who suffer a few if any debuffs past basic build restrictions.
So I ask you why are bows and crossbows restricted. If it's the range advantage there are always javelings, warbows, school of wapnog, and ebhulas which are far more deadly when an orcs launches one at you, oh and magic which isn't getting that much of a nerf in power to my knowledge.

Vampires.
Zehler are pretty much the refined version of being screwed, they do have an ooc requirements but how is that different from a special permission past being harder to get.

To finish this ranty thing of mobile annoyment, either a lot of the lore needs to be nerfed severely or rewritten completely, or simply not written as for the rivet bow as it wastes staff resources, or allow us to a more free range of weapons.
PS. Crossbows are bad.

 

[avemechanicus]

Regalia contains- Chemically accelerated berserkers capable of dodging missiles. Pikemen that can impale you in a single fluid motion, knights capable of defeating anyone, sans the Alorian admixture of a juicer, a space marine, and material impossibility. These forces contest- A race of not-Dathraki mimicks, simians able to become juggernauts, and multiple warrior species. Technology supplants physique. A berserker can still be bled to death (Or have it's organs removed with enough enthusiasm, and sharp objects), a charging steelhide can sidestepped.

I despise racial archetypes yet, in simplicity, some races are designed to fight against infeasible odds and survive. An ailor will not contest an orc, dakkar, ur, dwarf, tigran, sa-allar, mekkett, or other "Savage" in some aspect of physique as determined by the innate traits, and conditioning of that individual, whether durability, agility, or sinews capable of shattering inner ivory with reflexe alone. The elite warschools seem to counter this, yet a fact stated is "They're elite humans, yet they're still human sinewlaced flesh sacks full of vital areas." Knowing the lore, tactics, technology, or implications of the effects of is useful in that regard. An "Elite Viridian" with little combat roleplay ability, or knowledge of weaponry use can be defeated by clever tactics, pragmatism, or even the environment. Powergaming is oft a lack of higher understanding of implication, and the illusion of such is the same. A crossbow isn't broken, if the user understands how it works. With leverage, and tactics, a sewer brawler can defeat a raging orc, a Viridian Paladin, or a Tyrian. It comes to the individual. A weapon isn't broken, a piece of equipment isn't broken, rather it's use is misinterpreted. A race can be powerful in an aspect, yet each one has flaws, if only in comparity. Your ailor isn't going to overpower an orc, is going to be outpaced by a Ra'shaq, and will most likely never wound a dakkar without the proper equipment. Your nobility is irrelevant in that regard, as is your warschool. A human can only do so much, whether some toned turall, azure stained skagger, scarred Blackmark, or hulking Viridian. Beyond even that is what you can do as that character, what you can inter or use. Your errant punch isn't going to hurt an orc. The orc's punch is most likely going to do some damage. Your "Swung broadsword" is simply going to clang on the earthen hide of the dakkar. The dakkar's "Joint lock, if successful-" then "Dislocating snap attempt" if it succeeds is going to shift you to a dagger, a cane, a cast, or hopefully, words and subtlety when your faced with a stronger warrior, even if you are an ailor.
Crossbows, explosives, firearms, chemical weapons, magic, heavy armour- If you know how to use it, it's fine. There is nothing innately overpowered with these items alone. A crossbow isn't a gun, and it's more likely that you'd encounter a mage instantly casting, or "Storing a spell that can be instantly cast with only one emote" or an archer "Drawing a bow, knocking an arrow, aiming, and firing in one emote".
Use leads to "Abuse", missuse rather. There are some that can roleplay a matchlock musketeer, a grenadier, a war magus, a heavy weapons specialist, or assorted other "Broken warriors" with not a slight err. There are also those that can't properly roleplay a punch, a knife, intimidation, or blocking. Having a knight doesn't make you a great fighter, and having a crossbow doesn't make you a power gamer.

 

[_Grimmy_]

Regalia contains- Chemically accelerated berserkers capable of dodging missiles. Pikemen that can impale you in a single fluid motion, knights capable of defeating anyone, sans the Alorian admixture of a juicer, a space marine, and material impossibility. These forces contest- A race of not-Dathraki mimicks, simians able to become juggernauts, and multiple warrior species. Technology supplants physique. A berserker can still be bled to death (Or have it's organs removed with enough enthusiasm, and sharp objects), a charging steelhide can sidestepped.

I despise racial archetypes yet, in simplicity, some races are designed to fight against infeasible odds and survive. An ailor will not contest an orc, dakkar, ur, dwarf, tigran, sa-allar, mekkett, or other "Savage" in some aspect of physique as determined by the innate traits, and conditioning of that individual, whether durability, agility, or sinews capable of shattering inner ivory with reflexe alone. The elite warschools seem to counter this, yet a fact stated is "They're elite humans, yet they're still human sinewlaced flesh sacks full of vital areas." Knowing the lore, tactics, technology, or implications of the effects of is useful in that regard. An "Elite Viridian" with little combat roleplay ability, or knowledge of weaponry use can be defeated by clever tactics, pragmatism, or even the environment. Powergaming is oft a lack of higher understanding of implication, and the illusion of such is the same. A crossbow isn't broken, if the user understands how it works. With leverage, and tactics, a sewer brawler can defeat a raging orc, a Viridian Paladin, or a Tyrian. It comes to the individual. A weapon isn't broken, a piece of equipment isn't broken, rather it's use is misinterpreted. A race can be powerful in an aspect, yet each one has flaws, if only in comparity. Your ailor isn't going to overpower an orc, is going to be outpaced by a Ra'shaq, and will most likely never wound a dakkar without the proper equipment. Your nobility is irrelevant in that regard, as is your warschool. A human can only do so much, whether some toned turall, azure stained skagger, scarred Blackmark, or hulking Viridian. Beyond even that is what you can do as that character, what you can inter or use. Your errant punch isn't going to hurt an orc. The orc's punch is most likely going to do some damage. Your "Swung broadsword" is simply going to clang on the earthen hide of the dakkar. The dakkar's "Joint lock, if successful-" then "Dislocating snap attempt" if it succeeds is going to shift you to a dagger, a cane, a cast, or hopefully, words and subtlety when your faced with a stronger warrior, even if you are an ailor.
Crossbows, explosives, firearms, chemical weapons, magic, heavy armour- If you know how to use it, it's fine. There is nothing innately overpowered with these items alone. A crossbow isn't a gun, and it's more likely that you'd encounter a mage instantly casting, or "Storing a spell that can be instantly cast with only one emote" or an archer "Drawing a bow, knocking an arrow, aiming, and firing in one emote".
Use leads to "Abuse", missuse rather. There are some that can roleplay a matchlock musketeer, a grenadier, a war magus, a heavy weapons specialist, or assorted other "Broken warriors" with not a slight err. There are also those that can't properly roleplay a punch, a knife, intimidation, or blocking. Having a knight doesn't make you a great fighter, and having a crossbow doesn't make you a power gamer.

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Is just just an add-on for the original post or?

 

[avemechanicus]

Is just just an add-on for the original post or?

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I'm more admixture in my beliefs of powergaming.

 

[_Grimmy_]

I'm more admixture in my beliefs of powergaming.

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So can we both agree that selecting a few weapons seemingly arbitrarily to be unusable is.. Well see original post.

 

[avemechanicus]

So can we both agree that selecting a few weapons seemingly arbitrarily to be unusable is.. Well see original post.

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Aye.

 

[Parz1vol]

I feel like a huge issue with this is being afraid for people to lose their characters when they don't want, which is silly. By far, the most common form of powergaming is done by not dying to otherwise fatal wounds.

A sword across the gut, a direct hit in the head by a mace, and limb removal. All simple things with high likelihood for death outright. Too many people survive because of the current rules, to fuel their, "Escapsim," rather than die to fuel a good story.

Crossbows and what not would be used, yes. Would they change things? No, because people would powergame to survive them. Their presence, should therefore be allowed.

And as for Dakkar and Magic? I'm in favor of high lethality. Organisms do not purposely evolve weaknesses, so each species being as fit to survive as possible should make sense.

 

[Wumpatron]

Vampires.
Zehler are pretty much the refined version of being screwed, they do have an ooc requirements but how is that different from a special permission past being harder to get.

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I just want to argue this point. Not really going against you more so just an explanation of it. The OOC requirements are so substantial that it makes it significantly different than a special permission. There is so much to accomplish to be permitted a Zehler that I had to opt out of it due to not being able to fulfill all the requirements due to my schedule. Zehler has the highest amount of requirements out of everything, so much so that parts of the Zehler requirements were added to Nobility permissions. Not so much for the lower nobility, but for the higher Famous Families. Essentially what I'm getting to is that the Zehler permission has an extensive OOC period of approval that those with the permission are trusted to carry out properly. If you feel as though they are power gaming this permission it's encouraged to address the individual and/or staff in charge of the Zehler perms to ensure that everything is how it should be. Apologies if this is a tad long and repetitive in places, but this is just a semi-depth explanation of the Zehler perms.
Again, if you feel one with the Zehler perm is power gaming address the individual or staff to come to a resolution to the issue. I don't care to argue the other points as those have a mix of arguments to both sides. I'm hoping nice discussion on the matter comes from this thread.

 

[_Grimmy_]

I just want to argue this point. Not really going against you more so just an explanation of it. The OOC requirements are so substantial that it makes it significantly different than a special permission. There is so much to accomplish to be permitted a Zehler that I had to opt out of it due to not being able to fulfill all the requirements due to my schedule. Zehler has the highest amount of requirements out of everything, so much so that parts of the Zehler requirements were added to Nobility permissions. Not so much for the lower nobility, but for the higher Famous Families. Essentially what I'm getting to is that the Zehler permission has an extensive OOC period of approval that those with the permission are trusted to carry out properly. If you feel as though they are power gaming this permission it's encouraged to address the individual and/or staff in charge of the Zehler perms to ensure that everything is how it should be. Apologies if this is a tad long and repetitive in places, but this is just a semi-depth explanation of the Zehler perms.
Again, if you feel one with the Zehler perm is power gaming address the individual or staff to come to a resolution to the issue. I don't care to argue the other points as those have a mix of arguments to both sides. I'm hoping nice discussion on the matter comes from this thread.

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The point more so is that zehler by design are extremely overpowered by design same way dakkar and garklak orcs are.

 

[GoodDreamer]

The point more so is that zehler by design are extremely overpowered by design same way dakkar and garklak orcs are.

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Weapons, races, schools, and people are not created equally. If Zehler didn't get buffs, they wouldn't be useful. If Dakkar weren't hell to fight, they wouldn't be played. Garklak Orcs.. I feel might need to have some lines drawn, due to some vagueness on the wiki ("I can break boulders and conveniently forget that shattered bones might not heal correctly!!!"), but the concept of it is totally fair.

On the flip side, these people (bar the Orcs) have major weaknesses, which can all be viewed on their respective wiki pages.

 

[Conflee]

Generally, the reason that has been cited in the past when I have heard this brought up is because its an instant hit. Realistically, its powergaming to say you can dodge an arrow or crossbow bolt at any real range. Especially in the confined sewer tunnels where they would be used.

I can agree with this to an extent, but again, in a world with literal magic healing, nothing is fatal that would be normally. Most deaths from bows and crossbows, and any weapon really, would have been from infections in the olden days, but in Aloria, we have not only magic healing, but ointments and salves that stop infections.

So, while a well placed arrow would take most people out of a fight, it is hardly a death sentence. I think rules should be laid out and put in place specifically for bows and crossbows and other near-instant ranged weapons for proper emoting.

I was told by staff to emote loading a bolt. Then another emote a bit later about pulling it back. Then another for shooting it. So it would give an opponent three "turns" to react. I would say three for a crossbow, and two for a bow, would be a reasonable hindrance, given that MAGIC, which is far more destructive and deadly realistically speaking, has roughly the same.

EDIT: Also slightly off-and-on topic, Bows on the surface (or outside the slums eventually) should be 100% prohibited because you cant hide a damn bow in your shirt. Even if Bows were made available OOCly in RP.

 

[_Grimmy_]

Even if Bows were made available OOCly in RP.

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Bows are already available

 

[MonMarty]

Bows are usable. Crossbows are not.

Crossbows, especially when pre-loaded (because lets face it, everyone who carries a crossbow around is going to pretend they freshly loaded it that very morning), results in:

1. Shoots bow
2. At this point you have two options: Dodge or get hit
3. If you dodge, power gaming is called
4. If you take it, you'll likely die unless it was in some non-lethal area like a hand.

Crossbows do not entice or encourage creative or rewarding roleplay. Crossbows may be used in situations where both parties necessitate the usage there-of (for example when someone agrees that a Crossbow will be used to attempt an assassination, or for hunting purposes), but a crossbow should never be instant draw instant shot for casual roleplay or with the intention to draw out in penis measurement combat rp sessions.

Drawing time? Now you're just crippling the game play value of this item in comparison to a swordsman who needs less time to cross a distance between themselves and said being used crossbow to bitch slap them.

If a weapon only presents two options (being option dodge and take) from use level, then it's not conductive for roleplay in any way. Explosives? Same problem. Dodge or get blown up and die. A sword strike is commutable. It can be struck with different techniques and with different styles or manners. An explosive or crossbow follows always the same trajectory and thus only has two options.

It's as simple as that.

This has absolutely nothing to do with logic in combat. The weapon isn't overpowered, the unnecessary OOC drama from arguing and game regulation breaking however is, which is why this is always presented as the core issue of these quick-draw-quick-hit-ranged weapons.

 

[MonMarty]

Regalia contains-

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The realism rant is honestly a bit overdone, and it also feels like super cherry picking to me. If full realism was adhered to your precious character Rerik Ulster would have been exterminated with past Orc troubles, or would have suffered some aggressive form of innate racism instead of the utter SJW approach both the Black Family and assorted other characters have showered onto a mutt breed. The call for logic in roleplay is always super hypocritically elected for only asset there-of, namely the asset that benefits the person who calls for it's specific personal tastes and desires.

 

[_Grimmy_]

Bows are usable. Crossbows are not.

Crossbows, especially when pre-loaded (because lets face it, everyone who carries a crossbow around is going to pretend they freshly loaded it that very morning), results in:

1. Shoots bow
2. At this point you have two options: Dodge or get hit
3. If you dodge, power gaming is called
4. If you take it, you'll likely die unless it was in some non-lethal area like a hand.

Crossbows do not entice or encourage creative or rewarding roleplay. Crossbows may be used in situations where both parties necessitate the usage there-of (for example when someone agrees that a Crossbow will be used to attempt an assassination, or for hunting purposes), but a crossbow should never be instant draw instant shot for casual roleplay or with the intention to draw out in penis measurement combat rp sessions.

Drawing time? Now you're just crippling the game play value of this item in comparison to a swordsman who needs less time to cross a distance between themselves and said being used crossbow to lover slap them.

If a weapon only presents two options (being option dodge and take) from use level, then it's not conductive for roleplay in any way. Explosives? Same problem. Dodge or get blown up and die. A sword strike is commutable. It can be struck with different techniques and with different styles or manners. An explosive or crossbow follows always the same trajectory and thus only has two options.

It's as simple as that.

This has absolutely nothing to do with logic in combat. The weapon isn't overpowered, the unnecessary OOC drama from arguing and game regulation breaking however is, which is why this is always presented as the core issue of these quick-draw-quick-hit-ranged weapons.

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I totally agree but.. Crossbows aren't generally that simple to use, the average scummy criminal would still require at least a turn, more likely two to aim at a stationary target and that's when we run into the main problem, almost everybody is over skilled.

 

[MonMarty]

I totally agree but.. Crossbows aren't generally that simple to use, the average scummy criminal would still require at least a turn, more likely two to aim at a stationary target and that's when we run into the main problem, almost everybody is over skilled.

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That is not something we can formally combat without just telling everyone they are average, which would certainly defeat the point of roleplay for a vast majority of the player base. The only thing we have left is ensuring that Mary Sue's don't get their hands on unnecessarily overpowered weaponry like crossbows or explosives.

 

[Parz1vol]

@MonMarty

There are logical inaccuracies that are rather easy to point out in the description of a crossbow scenario. I propose my own with a bit more general likelihood:

(Non-modern) Crossbows can not be preloaded hours in advanced. The tension in the weapon is dangerous to literally everyone around you, and can weaken the crossbow significantly. Staff would instate a, "No pre-load," rule, which could be player enforced entirely because it just makes sense. Logic behind the rule being, that if you pre-loaded, you pre-load often and the crossbow is too weak to do significant damage. If you don't load every morning, you meta-gamed. So now we have the scenario, which has about two options.

1. Draw
2. Load
3. Aim
4. Fire
5. Maybe do damage if you don't miss (but since everyone wears "thick leather padding" or some such thing it probably would do jackshit, if we're being honest)

This would take at least six emotes to complete. If you fail to respond or counter it, it's entirely your own fault. 15 seconds is generously short for a crossbow reload, but I could run up to someone and stab them during the loading action alone.

Next.

1. Draw
2. Lo-- My stomach!
3. Be stabbed on the ground
4. Bleed
5. Get a light mage to instantly fix your wounds later

That's the most likely scenario.

Finally, a third.

1. Draw
2. Be KOed instantly by your enemy's friend, the Dakkar
3. Make a thread complaining about Dakkar OP

Crossbows are an incredibly easy thing to handle, if we're being reasonable. It'd be entirely player* policed. Hell, put a Special Permission gate in front of it if you wish.

Edit: Accidentally said staff policed, rather than player policed.

 

[MonMarty]

Staff would instate a, "No pre-load," rule, which could be player enforced entirely because it just makes sense. Logic behind the rule being, that if you pre-loaded, you pre-load often and the crossbow is too weak to do significant damage.

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Are you proposing this number will somehow be tracked and obligated to some spread sheet? It'd nice to defer it to player policing and all, but if you expect players to moderate the accuracy of drawing strength from overuse or the danger of malfunction, then you're going to come home from a cold shower.

The question is a null question since the ban only really applies to casual non-scripted combat rp. If you want to use a crossbow to deal with your plotting against a noble family and they were fine with that approach, then you don't have to worry about the rule. Additionally, if you are a guard, crossbows are available to you in emergency arrest cases of high profile criminals. The concept of laissez faire roleplay still applies, if your roleplay situation demands a crossbow to be present it can be.

The only thing we don't allow is for people to just carry a crossbow on their back to wave it around in combat RP to empower their character's win-rp chances. The way I see it, these random combat rp encounters are like PVP matches on World of Warcraft. Obviously World of Warcraft also disables certain behaviors and items or abilities in PVP duels since they create an unfair playing field. This is no different. When the roleplay concerns just one person waving their dick around then they cannot use a Crossbow. C'est ca. Use one of the thirty other weapons available.

 

[_Grimmy_]

Are you proposing this number will somehow be tracked and obligated to some spread sheet? It'd nice to defer it to player policing and all, but if you expect players to moderate the accuracy of drawing strength from overuse or the danger of malfunction, then you're going to come home from a cold shower.

The question is a null question since the ban only really applies to casual non-scripted combat rp. If you want to use a crossbow to deal with your plotting against a noble family and they were fine with that approach, then you don't have to worry about the rule. Additionally, if you are a guard, crossbows are available to you in emergency arrest cases of high profile criminals. The concept of laissez faire roleplay still applies, if your roleplay situation demands a crossbow to be present it can be.

The only thing we don't allow is for people to just carry a crossbow on their back to wave it around in combat RP to empower their character's win-rp chances. The way I see it, these random combat rp encounters are like PVP matches on World of Warcraft. Obviously World of Warcraft also disables certain behaviors and items or abilities in PVP duels since they create an unfair playing field. This is no different. When the roleplay concerns just one person waving their dick around then they cannot use a Crossbow. C'est ca. Use one of the thirty other weapons available.

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So if I'm getting this right, you would be allowed to use a crossbow, explosives etc. in something like a scripted robbery on either a guild hall or a shop, where this will probably won't even come into play in actual combat.

 

[MonMarty]

So if I'm getting this right, you would be allowed to use a crossbow, explosives etc. in something like a scripted robbery on either a guild hall or a shop, where this will probably won't even come into play in actual combat.

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Even if it comes into play, if the people involved are okay with a bit more violence then it's fine as far as logic stretches for these items. (can it be brought into the city? Can I get it to place XYZ? Can I assemble this device with my limited knowledge? etc.). In essence, the only way we don't allow crossbow usage is passive roleplay, like just leaning up against a wall in the sewer tavern and then picking a fight with a shendar, whipping out your dickbow and engaging in combatrp. Theoretically speaking if this shendar is okay with you using a crossbow on them, then this would even become a scripted event and you'd be permitted to suddenly use a crossbow. It's just that we make the information somewhat difficult to trace to avoid nilly willy combat win-rp with instant bolting crossbows. The "reasonable crowd" will find ways around this bar, where-as it will mostly block people who are unreasonable.

 

[Parz1vol]

@MonMarty

There are logical inaccuracies that are rather easy to point out in the description of a crossbow scenario. I propose my own with a bit more general likelihood:

(Non-modern) Crossbows can not be preloaded hours in advanced. The tension in the weapon is dangerous to literally everyone around you, and can weaken the crossbow significantly. Staff would instate a, "No pre-load," rule, which could be player enforced entirely because it just makes sense. Logic behind the rule being, that if you pre-loaded, you pre-load often and the crossbow is too weak to do significant damage. If you don't load every morning, you meta-gamed. So now we have the scenario, which has about two options.

1. Draw
2. Load
3. Aim
4. Fire
5. Maybe do damage if you don't miss (but since everyone wears "thick leather padding" or some such thing it probably would do jackshit, if we're being honest)

This would take at least six emotes to complete. If you fail to respond or counter it, it's entirely your own fault. 15 seconds is generout short for a crossbow reload, but I could run up to someone and stab them during the loading action alone.

Next.

1. Draw
2. Lo-- My stomach!
3. Be stabbed on the ground
4. Bleed
5. Get a light mage to instantly fix your wounds later

That's the most likely scenario.

Finally, a third.

1. Draw
2. Be KOed instantly by your enemy's friend, the Dakkar
3. Make a thread complaining about Dakkar OP

Crossbows are an incredibly easy thing to handle, if we're being reasonable. It'd be entirely player* policed. Hell, put a Special Permission gate in front of it if you wish.

Edit: Accidentally said staff policed, rather than player policed.

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See also, it takes an average man about 16 seconds to run 100 meters, with fit men being faster. Let's say 14 seconds. A crossbow can take between 20 and 60 seconds to load. Let's observe. A bowman is loading his crossbow about 100 meters away. As a fit man, joe schmo runs as fast as he can towards the bowman. The bowman almost finishes loading, and joe schmo stabs him to death.

Are you proposing this number will somehow be tracked and obligated to some spread sheet? It'd nice to defer it to player policing and all, but if you expect players to moderate the accuracy of drawing strength from overuse or the danger of malfunction, then you're going to come home from a cold shower.

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No, actually, I said it would be player policed. Not player managed. It wouldn't be managed by anyone. Players would encounter people breaking the rule and tell them to follow the rules. If this player refuses to follow the rules, other players refuse to respond to their actions, or ticket them for a breach of etiquette.

You're adding this unnecessary layer to things, and you're holding onto the preconceived notion that crossbows are innately power/win gamey. Crossbows inflict wounds, wounds inflict death or development unless you just happen to know a light mage.

This is no different

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And to this? Of course it's similar, but not the same. In WoW, the developers made changes to make it more fun. In role play, changes need to happen to make it more fun to use crossbows and have them used on you. See again the player policed, "No Pre-Load," proposition. It says and means exactly what it says. Whether you take it in context or not, it's hard to misconstrue the point I'm making with proposition of that rule.

instant bolting crossbows.

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You say this as if it hasn't already been addressed. A statement is not correct because one says it is correct.

The "reasonable crowd" will find ways around this bar, where-as it will mostly block people who are unreasonable.

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This is a somewhat transparent way of telling us that we're unreasonable for not subverting the no-passive-crossbow rule, I'll assume?

 

[_Grimmy_]

See also, it takes an average man about 16 seconds to run 100 meters, with fit men being faster. Let's say 14 seconds. A crossbow can take between 20 and 60 seconds to load. Let's observe. A bowman is loading his crossbow about 100 meters away. As a fit man, joe schmo runs as fast as he can towards the bowman. The bowman almost finishes loading, and joe schmo stabs him to death.


No, actually, I said it would be player policed. Not player managed. It wouldn't be managed by anyone. Players would encounter people breaking the rule and tell them to follow the rules. If this player refuses to follow the rules, other players refuse to respond to their actions, or ticket them for a breach of etiquette.

You're adding this unnecessary layer to things, and you're holding onto the preconceived notion that crossbows are innately power/win gamey. Crossbows inflict wounds, wounds inflict death or development unless you just happen to know a light mage.


And to this? Of course it's similar, but not the same. In WoW, the developers made changes to make it more fun. In role play, changes need to happen to make it more fun to use crossbows and have them used on you. See again the player policed, "No Pre-Load," proposition. It says and means exactly what it says. Whether you take it in context or not, it's hard to misconstrue the point I'm making with proposition of that rule.


You say this as if it hasn't already been addressed. A statement is not correct because one says it is correct.


This is a somewhat transparent way of telling us that we're unreasonable for not subverting the no-passive-crossbow rule, I'll assume?

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I mean crossbows are kind of hard to get, pipebombs being easier, but with a high failchance unless you very delicately place it down and back up slowly. So yes, it is unreasonable for avg people to have crossbows and know how to use them.

 

[MonMarty]

This

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I'll defer to top post again with a short reply because this is running in circles:

While your logic is sound on how dickbows can be used in-rp with limitations, I consider the need for those limitations and policing to be a sign of the win-rp value there-of. Nothing you have said convinces me that it's not win-rp. The fact that it's win-rp causes me to believe that allowing the usage of them would not weigh off the amount of OOC drama and salt they will cause. As such, I choose to anger a bunch of dickbow fanatics to avoid causing unnecessary community strife in the long run.

I mean crossbows are kind of hard to get, pipebombs being easier, but with a high failchance unless you very delicately place it down and back up slowly. So yes, it is unreasonable for avg people to have crossbows and know how to use them.

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Not super relevant anymore to the subject because it was adequately responded to, but essentially, I was more-so speaking from the perspective of someone suddenly composing a perfect c4 and just nuking someone's property.

 

[Parz1vol]

I consider the need for those limitations and policing to be a sign of the win-rp value there-of

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Marty, when was the last time you gained character development from a sword? Unless someone dies, or you become a cripple, there is none. All weapons are win role play, so your win role play defense is silly. The point of using a weapon is to make winning easier.

 

[_Grimmy_]

Marty, when was the last time you gained character development from a sword? Unless someone dies, or you become a cripple, there is none. All weapons are win role play, so your win role play defense is silly. The point of using a weapon is to make winning easier.

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I have gained plenty development from it.
Just because you see as combat inherently about killing or crippling is more so a reflection of you

 

[MonMarty]

Marty, when was the last time you gained character development from a sword? Unless someone dies, or you become a cripple, there is none. All weapons are win role play, so your win role play defense is silly. The point of using a weapon is to make winning easier.

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Tristan and Cedric had a duel which was a sparring match of sorts. The match went awry and Tristan smashed a table that caused a large number of splinters to deposit in his hand. Cedric called off the match and spent the rest of the day picking the splinters out while they reminisced about the Qadir occupation and strengthened their friendship.

Alternatively Sigurna Wodenstaff also got some character development after she drew a shortsword on someone's neck that sent her down a spiraling court case of heresy and prostitution charges.

A weapon is not a gateway to a kill or maim or nothing scenario. Anyone who thinks that way should not be part of any gameplay theorizing as they cannot be relied upon to think about anyone but themselves.

 

[Parz1vol]

A weapon is not a gateway to a kill or maim or nothing scenario

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Okay, thank you for playing into my hand. Then why can't a crossbow be used for anything other than win role play? Clearly weapons have more edges to them than just the killing ones. So why are crossbows different? Why can't two friends practice shooting targets together? Why can't a robber point the crossbow at the wrong man, and be forced down a path of possible danger for himself?

Anyone who thinks that way should not be part of any gameplay theorizing as they cannot be relied upon to think about anyone but themselves.

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I'm keeping tally so far, btw. I'm unreasonable and I'm a narcissist.

 

[_Grimmy_]

Okay, thank you for playing into my hand. Then why can't a crossbow be used for anything other than win role play? Clearly weapons have more edges to them than just the killing ones. So why are crossbows different? Why can't two friends practice shooting targets together? Why can't a robber point the crossbow at the wrong man, and be forced down a path of possible danger for himself?

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Even if it comes into play, if the people involved are okay with a bit more violence then it's fine as far as logic stretches for these items. (can it be brought into the city? Can I get it to place XYZ? Can I assemble this device with my limited knowledge? etc.). In essence, the only way we don't allow crossbow usage is passive roleplay, like just leaning up against a wall in the sewer tavern and then picking a fight with a shendar, whipping out your dickbow and engaging in combatrp. Theoretically speaking if this shendar is okay with you using a crossbow on them, then this would even become a scripted event and you'd be permitted to suddenly use a crossbow. It's just that we make the information somewhat difficult to trace to avoid nilly willy combat win-rp with instant bolting crossbows. The "reasonable crowd" will find ways around this bar, where-as it will mostly block people who are unreasonable.

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[Parz1vol]

Hi yes, hello, but no. This discussion is about passive use of the crossbow. Impromptu. A crossbow using character shouldn't have to rely on the mood of some powergaming simpleton in the slums or sewers to determine whether or not a crossbow can be used.

 

[Suzzie]

Honestly, I disagree with the usage of bows and crossbows. Those things leave little room for response. How are you supposed enjoy even a simple fight when every time you move, you get shot? And mind you, arrows do some pretty major damage.
I've seen instances before where people had bows and it was constant 'pew pew pew' making it hard for the opposition to do anything. And that's with a bow. I know there is a reload period, but Crossbows make up for the time with damage. It's really hard to balance, simply due to how they work.

Is your roleplay really hindered because you can't have your crossbow? No.

 

[Parz1vol]

Honestly, I disagree with the usage of bows and crossbows. Those things leave little room for response. How are you supposed enjoy even a simple fight when every time you move, you get shot? And mind you, arrows do some pretty major damage.
I've seen instances before where people had bows and it was constant 'pew pew pew' making it hard for the opposition to do anything. And that's with a bow. I know there is a reload period, but Crossbows make up for the time with damage. It's really hard to balance, simply due to how they work.

Is your roleplay really hindered because you can't have your crossbow? No.

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Okay, so then why allow magic that can light your enemy on fire, which can do some pretty major damage, mind you? Or magic that allows you to freeze your enemy? Or throw ice shards at someone? Or magically walk through another dimension? What about the races that allow you to literally get rid of all of your character's weaknesses as long as you have a partner? Or the races that get off on pain and use that to cast magic (which subverts the whole, "Can't cast while being hurt," thing)? Or the race that barrels through anyone and anything because it's literally a wrecking ball on four legs? Or the race that can kill you basically as soon as you get near water? Or the monkeys that turn into supertanks and become nearly impossible to defeat because they're fast and strong?

Is your roleplay really hindered because you can't have your crossbow? No.

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Considering that, is your role play really hindered because someone does have a crossbow?

 

[Suzzie]

Okay, so then why allow magic that can light your enemy on fire, which can do some pretty major damage, mind you? Or magic that allows you to freeze your enemy? Or throw ice shards at someone? Or magically walk through another dimension? What about the races that allow you to literally get rid of all of your character's weaknesses as long as you have a partner? Or the races that get off on pain and use that to cast magic (which subverts the whole, "Can't cast while being hurt," thing)? Or the race that barrels through anyone and anything because it's literally a wrecking ball on four legs? Or the race that can kill you basically as soon as you get near water? Or the monkeys that turn into supertanks and become nearly impossible to defeat because they're fast and strong?

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The magic argument is null as all that is getting reworked.
Dakkar can easily be dodged.
Sai-whatever elves are frail.
Maiar are weak out of water.
I can't remember the Wulong one.

Why do you keep going on? It feels like you're throwing up this debate for the sake of arguing.

Considering that, is your role play really hindered because someone does have a crossbow?

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Yes, considering they get abused, and really aren't fun for anyone but on the sending end. You dodge or hit, like marty said, meaning powergame of massive damage. Hell even with normal bows this is a problem.

Also, do you have a problem? You keep coming off as passive aggressive.

 

[_Grimmy_]

I can't remember the Wulong one.

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They're like corruption magic just with out the death at the end aka giant rage beasts that attack everything without thought.

 

[Parz1vol]

Dakkar can easily be dodged.
Sai-whatever elves are frail.
Maiar are weak out of water.
I can't remember the Wulong one.

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Crossbows take an immense amount of time to reload.
Crossbow strings can be cut.
Bolts aren't all that damaging.
Bows are just as dangerous and faster.

Yes, considering they get abused, and really aren't fun for anyone but on the sending end.

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I already proposed something to handle that. Apparently players are incapable of tapping each other on the shoulder with the baton though, and a player-policing, "System," (I'd hardly call it a system).

You dodge or hit, like marty said, meaning powergame of massive damage.

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"Like Marty said," isn't a very strong defense right now seeing as how I already handled that statement. If a rule to not have pre-loaded crossbows is instated, then you have several options.

Hell even with normal bows this is a problem.

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And if this is the case, why aren't all bows prohibited? Especially considering that bows are better than crossbows.

Also, do you have a problem? You keep coming off as passive aggressive.

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This literally has nothing to do with the discussion and you're using it to prod. I'm not blind. What you aren't seeing is my dopey-arse grin. I love this sorta crap. Any passive aggression is because I'm having a blast.

 

[Sozzer]

Hi yes, hello, but no. This discussion is about passive use of the crossbow. Impromptu. A crossbow using character shouldn't have to rely on the mood of some powergaming simpleton in the slums or sewers to determine whether or not a crossbow can be used.

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bow before me powergaming simpleton
i have a weapon that is effectively impossible to dodge and can do extreme damage with ease
but you're the powergamer
not me
never me

 

[Parz1vol]

@Suzzie
I'm going to ask you send me that message that either you or someone else removed. This is a discussion and killing it like that is a bit interesting.

 

[Parz1vol]

bow before me powergaming simpleton
i have a weapon that is effectively impossible to dodge and can do extreme damage with ease
but you're the powergamer
not me
never me

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I was referring to Slums and Sewer brand players that are well known for their powergame. Please see literally everything I posted here about crossbows and how they aren't power game and win role play tools, just like bows.

 

[Suzzie]

@Suzzie
I'm going to ask you send me that message that either you or someone else removed. This is a discussion and killing it like that is a bit interesting.

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No thanks. I decided I didn't want to debate with you.

 

[Parz1vol]

No thanks. I decided I didn't want to debate with you.

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Alrighty then! It was fun, thank you.

 

[Sozzer]

I was referring to Slums and Sewer brand players that are well known for their powergame. Please see literally everything I posted here about crossbows and how they aren't power game and win role play tools, just like bows.

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ok but have you ever used a bow or a crossbow
or is this just argumentum ex culo
because it sure sounds like it is to me

Crossbows take an immense amount of time to reload.

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this one's accurate at least

Crossbow strings can be cut.

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if you're in a situation where your opponent has the opportunity to do this, your crossbow would be absolutely useless anyway, because it makes it pretty obvious the crossbow in this situation isn't loaded. so this is kind of a moot point

Bolts aren't all that damaging.
Bows are just as dangerous and faster.

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