Archived Factions Expansion: Empires And Ranks

[Mecharic]

So, it's been a long time since anyone made a suggestion of this nature, so I want to propose it again. The proposal has two parts to it, each of them important but independent (I just didn't think there should be two threads about this lol).

Empires
Empires is pretty simple in theory, probably a lot harder in code. It consists of the following:

• Imperial Factions: Factions that are upgraded so that they can have true Subfactions. The price to this would be 2,000 regals for the upgrade and an increase in faction tax from .1r per chunk to .2r per chunk, doubling it.
• True Subfactions: Instead of subfactions being entirely up to the subfaction, this plugin would create true subfactions. They would be unable to decide their own faction relations, instead having the same allies, truced, and enemied factions as their Imperial faction. These factions would have a lower tax rate than normal factions, preferably half of what independent factions would pay.
• Imperial Chat: This chat would be access via /c join I or i: and would allow subfactions and their Imperial faction to communicate outside of allied chats.
• Imperial Tax: Subfactions would pay a tax out of their bank daily to the Imperial faction, no more than 20 regals.
• Imperial Bank: A bank into which all taxes taken by the Imperial faction from Subfactions is sent. Any shortfalls in faction tax by the Imperial faction would be paid out of this bank. A permission would be added to allow the Imperial faction to withdraw the Imperial Bank (probably called "ImpBank").
  

This is mostly because I've always thought that there should be more groups of factions that are a coherent group rather than the loose collections that can exist now. With such a change as this, large scale wars would once again be possible, as would building massive empires and nations that, you know, actually work. Currently its just sorta... meh. Nonexistent. This is mostly just to add depth to factions overall and to give "Empires" an actual status in the game.
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More Ranks:
This should be pretty easy to code, but naturally that means it'll be a pain to do so. The idea is to add more ranks to the faction plugin in order to allow more customized perms for players to have. This would result in the following ranks for all factions:

1. Leader - The faction owner.
2. Deputy - The faction owners most trusted player, probably having perms equal to the leader.
3. Sheriff - A higher rank of officer that can handle all sorts of things.
4. Officer - Lower rank of officer that would likely be given recruitment jobs or similar.
5. Member - Used for people who are trusted, but not management trusted.
6. Recruit - Generally used for new players or people that aren't trusted.

This would enable faction leaders to have more complex ranks, adding more layers of security into a faction. Currently, with only Leader, Officer, Member, Recruit factions are forced to decide if they want to trust only their leader to claim, or trust all officers to claim equally, or to give recruits 'member' level perms to use member rank as a lower officer rank. It's really not ideal and if this can be changed easily I'd suggest - am suggesting - that it be changed.
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I am making this suggestion now on account of Faction Taxes. I've heard it said before by staff that Factions is supposed to be an Anti-Grief plugin, and that as such it would/should not have anything fancy or special - however, Faction Tax changes that. If it was solely an anti-grief plugin players really shouldn't need to pay right? Since they do, there should be more customization of the plugin to help balance out/give purpose to the Tax. Or at least I feel that that.

I am in no way complaining about Faction Tax. I am merely suggesting that there be changes so that Faction Tax makes more sense, as an anti-grief plugin shouldn't be Pay-to-Protect.

 

[Alj23]

• I don't think the "imperial factions" should have an increased tax rate. It wouldn't promote creating empires if you had to spend 2,000 regals, and also have a double tax rate.
• I like that "sub-factions" get a decreased tax rate. It encourages joining an empire. I could see people creating a fake imperial faction using an alt faction, and then putting their main faction in that empire, effectively cutting their tax rate in half. But that's a bridge to cross when we get there.
• The imperial faction should be able to tax its sub-factions. Similar to the way taxes are done now, maybe on a larger scale. (20-50 regal limit. )
• There should be an imperial bank that is created when the imperial faction is created. Taxes from the sub-factions should go there. Add a new permission to the imperial faction that becomes active when the faction is upgraded that allows withdrawal from the imperial bank by rank.
• Sheriff rank seems a bit unneeded. Just my opinion though.

 

[65jes89]

In all honesty I was going to bring this up again soon. I'll write a longer response tomorrow

 

[Sir_Daragon]

This isnt bad. Just imagine darkrooms. The main faction would pay the big taxes thing amd the darkroom would only pay like half. That way with tax increased it would promote active player that would darkroom to pay taxes, and if the faction cant stay as empire, they should have the choice to go back as regular faction.

 

[Mecharic]

• I don't think the "imperial factions" should have an increased tax rate. It wouldn't promote creating empires if you had to spend 2,000 regals, and also have a double tax rate.
• I like that "sub-factions" get a decreased tax rate. It encourages joining an empire. I could see people creating a fake imperial faction using an alt faction, and then putting their main faction in that empire, effectively cutting their tax rate in half. But that's a bridge to cross when we get there.
• The imperial faction should be able to tax its sub-factions. Similar to the way taxes are done now, maybe on a larger scale. (20-50 regal limit. )
• There should be an imperial bank that is created when the imperial faction is created. Taxes from the sub-factions should go there. Add a new permission to the imperial faction that becomes active when the faction is upgraded that allows withdrawal from the imperial bank by rank.
• Sheriff rank seems a bit unneeded. Just my opinion though.

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1) We don't want any jo-shmo to be startin' an empire now. Only powerful, wealthy, or diligent factions should be able to start an empire. On top of this, roleplay wise, Empires have a heaping pile of bureaucracy and management, and that's expensive. Empires should be something to aim for, and something that takes effort to maintain over time.
2) I'd assume doing so would be against the rules, with a permban as the result.
3) I agree - but only if they pay the double-tax. This way they'd have an incentive to add more factions to their Empire in order to help support their increased tax.
4) Good idea, I'll toss that on
5) The way I view it is that Officer is "Recruitment" while Sheriff is "Government". The difference is that one just adds to the problems of the other

 

[Sir_Daragon]

Now i can see factions making dummy faction to start empires, while the big faction becomes subfaction. So maybe the subfactions cannot be bigger than the main one. Not in claim but player wise. That way if the main one fails, then they could pass the leadership to another faction.

But the main idea of Empires being an actual thing is a good idea.

 

[Zacatero]

Perhaps Empires would need to be staff approved? In order to avoid this fraud. Just to verify that the head faction is indeed a real faction.

 

[Neckerei]

me likey me wanty yasssss

 

[Aespair]

Now i can see factions making dummy faction to start empires, while the big faction becomes subfaction. So maybe the subfactions cannot be bigger than the main one. Not in claim but player wise. That way if the main one fails, then they could pass the leadership to another faction.

But the main idea of Empires being an actual thing is a good idea.

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That's a terrible idea because the imperial faction would have to pay the initial fee of 2000r, so automatically transferring leadership to the faction with the most players would be a huge pain to the original leader.

 

[Aespair]

Also my two cents are incoming when I get to pc.

 

[HeartAched]

Also my two cents are incoming when I get to pc.

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Dear lord, papabear, pls no.

 

[65jes89]

So, it's been a long time since anyone made a suggestion of this nature, so I want to propose it again. The proposal has two parts to it, each of them important but independent (I just didn't think there should be two threads about this lol).

Empires
Empires is pretty simple in theory, probably a lot harder in code. It consists of the following:

• Imperial Factions: Factions that are upgraded so that they can have true Subfactions. The price to this would be 2,000 regals for the upgrade and an increase in faction tax from .1r per chunk to .2r per chunk, doubling it.
• True Subfactions: Instead of subfactions being entirely up to the subfaction, this plugin would create true subfactions. They would be unable to decide their own faction relations, instead having the same allies, truced, and enemied factions as their Imperial faction. These factions would have a lower tax rate than normal factions, preferably half of what independent factions would pay.
• Imperial Chat: This chat would be access via /c join I or i: and would allow subfactions and their Imperial faction to communicate outside of allied chats.
• Imperial Tax: Subfactions would pay a tax out of their bank daily to the Imperial faction, no more than 20 regals.
• Imperial Bank: A bank into which all taxes taken by the Imperial faction from Subfactions is sent. Any shortfalls in faction tax by the Imperial faction would be paid out of this bank. A permission would be added to allow the Imperial faction to withdraw the Imperial Bank (probably called "ImpBank").

This is mostly because I've always thought that there should be more groups of factions that are a coherent group rather than the loose collections that can exist now. With such a change as this, large scale wars would once again be possible, as would building massive empires and nations that, you know, actually work. Currently its just sorta... meh. Nonexistent. This is mostly just to add depth to factions overall and to give "Empires" an actual status in the game.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More Ranks:
This should be pretty easy to code, but naturally that means it'll be a pain to do so. The idea is to add more ranks to the faction plugin in order to allow more customized perms for players to have. This would result in the following ranks for all factions:

1. Leader - The faction owner.
2. Deputy - The faction owners most trusted player, probably having perms equal to the leader.
3. Sheriff - A higher rank of officer that can handle all sorts of things.
4. Officer - Lower rank of officer that would likely be given recruitment jobs or similar.
5. Member - Used for people who are trusted, but not management trusted.
6. Recruit - Generally used for new players or people that aren't trusted.

This would enable faction leaders to have more complex ranks, adding more layers of security into a faction. Currently, with only Leader, Officer, Member, Recruit factions are forced to decide if they want to trust only their leader to claim, or trust all officers to claim equally, or to give recruits 'member' level perms to use member rank as a lower officer rank. It's really not ideal and if this can be changed easily I'd suggest - am suggesting - that it be changed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am making this suggestion now on account of Faction Taxes. I've heard it said before by staff that Factions is supposed to be an Anti-Grief plugin, and that as such it would/should not have anything fancy or special - however, Faction Tax changes that. If it was solely an anti-grief plugin players really shouldn't need to pay right? Since they do, there should be more customization of the plugin to help balance out/give purpose to the Tax. Or at least I feel that that.

I am in no way complaining about Faction Tax. I am merely suggesting that there be changes so that Faction Tax makes more sense, as an anti-grief plugin shouldn't be Pay-to-Protect.

Click to shrink...

Ok. So I'm going to throw (my possibly very long) two cents in.

Empires is probably the most requested plugin in the history of massive. This one thread alone (and there have been other threads about adding empires) received 112 positive ratings. To my knowledge, that's the highest rating count for any feature suggestion thread. It was also rumored for a while that empires would actually be added in factions 2.0 (although they obviously were not).

I would personally really like to see empires added, because it would most certainly bring back the politics between factions that used to occur on Massive. It would be possible for mercs, smaller pvp factions, and such, to actually be able to do something without just allying one of the pvp factions and essentially just being the same faction as them, politics wise. Additionally, it would bring some meaning back into PvP. I mean, right now, when you're raided you generally either hide inside/in Regalia, or you ally a PvP faction to go defend for you. Often, a popular surrnender term used to be to join the raiding faction's empire. You don't see that too much anymore, and when you do, it generally means nothing. You put something in your /f desc, and that's the end of it. If you look at the current major empires, the Dominion and Qaliphate, they're probably some of the larger empires in Massive's history. Despite this, however, they're also some of the weakest ones, in terms of unity. That's because there's pretty much no built-in support for empires and sub-factions. With a built-in support system, it would be possible to have great empires again.

Furthermore, this could potentially help some with roleplay/pvp unity. As part of an empire, roleplayers could actually have some chance of defending themselves, or at least do some occasional fighting with pvpers in their empire if they wanted to.

I would really, really like to see something like this added. I don't really care how it's done, just that it's done.

As for the ranks, I also like those, but empires should definitely take priority. Still though, I like the idea.

I'd be quite interested about what @Madus and @ulumulu1510 think about this.

Guess this actually wasn't that long, but I'll probably write some more stuff later

 

[Sir_Daragon]

Ok. So I'm going to throw (my possibly very long) two cents in.

Empires is probably the most requested plugin in the history of massive. This one thread alone (and there have been other threads about adding empires) received 112 positive ratings. To my knowledge, that's the highest rating count for any feature suggestion thread. It was also rumored for a while that empires would actually be added in factions 2.0 (although they obviously were not).

I would personally really like to see empires added, because it would most certainly bring back the politics between factions that used to occur on Massive. It would be possible for mercs, smaller pvp factions, and such, to actually be able to do something without just allying one of the pvp factions and essentially just being the same faction as them, politics wise. Additionally, it would bring some meaning back into PvP. I mean, right now, when you're raided you generally either hide inside/in Regalia, or you ally a PvP faction to go defend for you. Often, a popular surrnender term used to be to join the raiding faction's empire. You don't see that too much anymore, and when you do, it generally means nothing. You put something in your /f desc, and that's the end of it. If you look at the current major empires, the Dominion and Qaliphate, they're probably some of the larger empires in Massive's history. Despite this, however, they're also some of the weakest ones, in terms of unity. That's because there's pretty much no built-in support for empires and sub-factions. With a built-in support system, it would be possible to have great empires again.

Furthermore, this could potentially help some with roleplay/pvp unity. As part of an empire, roleplayers could actually have some chance of defending themselves, or at least do some occasional fighting with pvpers in their empire if they wanted to.

I would really, really like to see something like this added. I don't really care how it's done, just that it's done.

As for the ranks, I also like those, but empires should definitely take priority. Still though, I like the idea.

I'd be quite interested about what @Madus and @ulumulu1510 think about this.

Guess this actually wasn't that long, but I'll probably write some more stuff later

Click to shrink...

Great 2cent.

 

[Aespair]

It is I, the Great Aes of Mongaboo. I personally believe that this is a great idea to those of us who own giant factions and have been looking to expand our reach into the hearts and minds of others. It would make things really awesome and easy to have a large, nicely organized Empire, since you could have different sub-factions with histories and cultures of their own, while your faction retains the leadership and culture of its own. My faction, Hyrune, has been looking to expand its borders beyond in-faction things, and get our name out there more like Ol' Riverens did. However, due to the sheer amount of work and trial/error that needs to be put into it, me and @Mecharic have been putting it off.

The problem with Empires right now is that sub-factions have no drive or commitment to stay in an Empire. @Genecide65 was in my Empire at one point, but left a few days later because I wasn't constantly monitoring him. With the current unofficial way that Empires work, its really hard to find out which of the factions in your ally chat are in your Empire and which ones you actually promised you would defend if they were raided. Another thing is, ally chat gets really spammy at times, so it's not uncommon for me to leave it while I'm doing something and completely miss my sub-faction's request for aid. With Imperial chat, there's close to no chance for it to get as spammy as Ally chat.

The only problem I see with this whole thing is the possibility of a large faction splitting into a union of sub-factions under a tiny Imperial faction that has no land claimed. This way, they would be susceptible to the half-tax that comes with being a sub-faction and the Imperial faction wouldn't have to pay a dime. I think to avoid this, we should remove the idea of doubled Imperial tax all together, and instead make it a punishable offense to abuse the Empire plugin. Not too far back, it was illegal to abuse the faction plugin, and it was fairly easy to punish those who made the offenses. Rules go further than people think, especially for people who actually have the brains to create a giant faction in the first place or to get a group of 30 or so people to band behind them.

Furthermore, it gives factions more of a drive to succeed and become more profitable than to just sit around with their thumb up their rear after they get 60 or so members. It has to be said that the reason I've been so inactive the past few weeks isn't totally due to finals and lack of premium, though those are large factors. I've sort of lost my drive on Massive, and I've been continually looking for something to do. The thing that I'm good at is managing a faction, but that gets dull after awhile. I can't PvP because I get rekt by @Sevak, I try to RP but I just end up making cringey characters (I try nevertheless). Managing a faction is what I do, and it's what I've done since I joined this server.

With an Empire, I could actually see myself getting out there and doing more. I could make more friends on the server through conquering smaller factions and helping them to be greater through this plugin, since right now people are only ever discouraged by becoming part of an Empire. It makes them feel inferior, and an enormous sense of failure, since the only thing they usually get out of it is paying a large monthly tax to the mother-faction. With the Empire plugin, they would get half-tax for their faction, a LOT of people would leave them alone, they'd get a ton of friends, free food, the mother-faction could give them things to do, etc.

With my Empire rant over, let's get to this rank business.

I agree that there needs to be more ranks, however everyone seems to be disagreeing on the amount that is needed. I say that the solution to this could just be to allow the factions to create their own ranks. This may be hard to code, but its worth a shot. Let's say that the leader types /f newrank <Name of rank> <Symbol of rank>. The symbol of rank is what appears before their title in faction chat. For leader it's **. So an example of this would be: /f newrank Helper ^. In chat, the Helper's chat would come across as this:

[Faction ^Player]: Hi guys!​

To set their perms, you could just do it as you set the perms now. I recommend that a new rank has all perms turned off at the start, so the leader can turn them on as he so chooses. So if I wanted the helper to ONLY be able to recruit, I could just do /f perm set invite helper yes. With this new rank option, the factions plugin is immediately made 6000x better, and you know it's true because I am Famous Mr. Statistics Man.

In all seriousness, take a moment to think of all the stuff you could do with this. You could have a recruiting rank, a building rank, a public relations rank, a co-leader, a probation rank, etc. It is literally up to your imagination.

 

[Zacatero]

Yes more ranks would be absolutly amazing.

 

[Gabauchi]

What if there was a minimum required population for the empire, so that you couldn't just abuse it with an alt? Like, a minimum of 50 people or so would practically guarantee that you need to be a competent real faction to become an empire.

 

[Zacatero]

What if there was a minimum required population for the empire, so that you couldn't just abuse it with an alt? Like, a minimum of 50 people or so would practically guarantee that you need to be a competent real faction to become an empire.

Click to shrink...

What if to counter potential abuse. There's a tax for just having the empire, as well as the land tax. So no matter who is in charge of the controlling faction they still have to pay that fee every day/week/month what have you. That way it really wouldn't matter if an alt fac is in charge

 

[Gabauchi]

What if to counter potential abuse. There's a tax for just having the empire, as well as the land tax. So no matter who is in charge of the controlling faction they still have to pay that fee every day/week/month what have you. That way it really wouldn't matter if an alt fac is in charge

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That would also encourage people to be financially able while creating an empire, meaning that it'll be experienced players running them.

 

[Zacatero]

The only issue im seeing with the more ranks idea that @Aespair proposed that other plugins like massivelock would need a lot of coding since they run of faction data. But a system with a concrete 3 or 4 new ranks across the board would be great.

 

[Neckerei]

Id also like the command to give your entire faction access to a chunk to build. Or make a perm to break on certain blocks in the faction like /f perm set crops mem yes or something so all members could farm without having access

 

[Devilkk]

I agree that there needs to be more ranks, however everyone seems to be disagreeing on the amount that is needed. I say that the solution to this could just be to allow the factions to create their own ranks. This may be hard to code, but its worth a shot. Let's say that the leader types /f newrank <Name of rank> <Symbol of rank>. The symbol of rank is what appears before their title in faction chat. For leader it's **. So an example of this would be: /f newrank Helper ^. In chat, the Helper's chat would come across as this:

[Faction ^Player]: Hi guys!​

To set their perms, you could just do it as you set the perms now. I recommend that a new rank has all perms turned off at the start, so the leader can turn them on as he so chooses. So if I wanted the helper to ONLY be able to recruit, I could just do /f perm set invite helper yes. With this new rank option, the factions plugin is immediately made 6000x better, and you know it's true because I am Famous Mr. Statistics Man.

In all seriousness, take a moment to think of all the stuff you could do with this. You could have a recruiting rank, a building rank, a public relations rank, a co-leader, a probation rank, etc. It is literally up to your imagination.

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This is definitely a great idea. I know that I, personally, would love to see this happen, and look forward to it being a possibility.
Perhaps a cap of 10 ranks though however, or the ability to set the cap in the config file, because otherwise it could get out of hand.

The only issue im seeing with the more ranks idea that @Aespair proposed that other plugins like massivelock would need a lot of coding since they run of faction data. But a system with a concrete 3 or 4 new ranks across the board would be great.

Click to shrink...

If I am correct? Don't quote me on this, but i believe massivelock checks for the ranking system used? Because I assume it wasn't just set up purely for factions, but to allow other plugins to work with it as well? So it may very well not make any difference to the rest of the plugins.

Id also like the command to give your entire faction access to a chunk to build. Or make a perm to break on certain blocks in the faction like /f perm set crops mem yes or something so all members could farm without having access

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Even better perhaps, a way to add a version of world edit/worldguard command //pos1 and //pos2 to the faction plugin, to create specific access areas.


Granted, all of this would take a considerable amount of time to code into the plugin and or plugins, and debug it. But I think it would certainly improve the quality and usage of it.

 

[Aespair]

Id also like the command to give your entire faction access to a chunk to build. Or make a perm to break on certain blocks in the faction like /f perm set crops mem yes or something so all members could farm without having access

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/f access f <faction> already does that

 

[Zacatero]

If I am correct? Don't quote me on this, but i believe massivelock checks for the ranking system used? Because I assume it wasn't just set up purely for factions, but to allow other plugins to work with it as well? So it may very well not make any difference to the rest of the plugins

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This is correct but if all of a sudden there are six more ranks in factions. You would need to code those into massivelock

 

[Night_Raider_]

This is correct but if all of a sudden there are six more ranks in factions. You would need to code those into massivelock

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Would you? I thought massivelock ranks were entirely seperate from faction ranks. Or did I miss something?
Anyway, this is a great idea and I would love to see it implemented as well as neckerei's idea of specific types of blocks having different build perms.
Another option that I think would be very useful would be a way to limit the y-coordinates of /f access or have a different command similar to /f access that had this ability. I love /f access but it's of very limited use for me because I tend to stack layers in my base to keep the amount of claimed land (and tax) down. I have no idea if it would be possible to code something like that, but I have a feeling it would be very helpful because it could allow factions to use the land under their base as housing for recruits without giving them across-the-board build perms.
Not trying to highjack this thread btw, but if I get some positive feedback and don't get told it isnt possible, I'll make a seperate thread.

 

[Zacatero]

Would you? I thought massivelock ranks were entirely seperate from faction ranks. Or did I miss something?
Anyway, this is a great idea and I would love to see it implemented as well as neckerei's idea of specific types of blocks having different build perms.
Another option that I think would be very useful would be a way to limit the y-coordinates of /f access or have a different command similar to /f access that had this ability. I love /f access but it's of very limited use for me because I tend to stack layers in my base to keep the amount of claimed land (and tax) down. I have no idea if it would be possible to code something like that, but I have a feeling it would be very helpful because it could allow factions to use the land under their base as housing for recruits without giving them across-the-board build perms.
Not trying to highjack this thread btw, but if I get some positive feedback and don't get told it isnt possible, I'll make a seperate thread.

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Yes because you can set a lock rank for a faction rank. If i wanted to add all officers of tyberia to my lock under the lock rank member i would do

/lock edit roles add member f.tyberia officer

So it would have to reach into the ranks of that faction, and if there are custom ranks it would get confused (i would assume)

 

[Madus]

<complaint> Please keep the thread on topic. I was asked to give my feedback, and it becomes quite difficult to me to focus on the actual thread, when everyone believes they should use this thread to post unrelated faction wishes. <\complaint>

Anyhow, Empires, the most wished faction addition ever (perhaps except for that new fancy rank). I might just not be visionary enough, but what exactly do you want with empires? Taxes aside for a moment, the only thing I see here is empire chat and some special feeling people have when they type a command to commit to an empire. I cannot see why we need empires, like really. It makes the faction system more complex, but what for, how do they actually improve gameplay? I might just be missing it, but I cannot see any advantages here.

The taxes will be the same for all claims, empire claims or others. Changing claim taxes for certain claim types is a ridiculous way to change peoples behaviour into using the faction plugin in a specific way, much like when a government puts extra taxes on cigarettes. But while a government might have a compelling reason to stop people from smoking, we really shouldn't dictate if anyone joins an empire or not through taxing.

I haven't even begun discussing if it is worth the time to implement. Personally I feel there is several things in factions that is more important to work on. I'd really like a reworked access system or the ability to make custom ranks (trust me, that won't be easy). So I think we should focus on doing those things straight and then perhaps later revisit this idea.

 

[Zacatero]

What I think would be a cool setup for Empires is like a faction in itself. A leader faction. Officer factions. Member factions and so on. So an Empire would essentially be set up like a giant faction. I think that would be cool.

It gives a point to these dominions. It gives unity. And it would be really fun. Those aee my reasons.

 

[FireFan96]

I see this empire idea and the towny plugin immediately comes to mind. The way I see the suggestion, it feels a lot like that plugin, except a little more open ended with permissions.

 

[Night_Raider_]

snip

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Alright, I had no idea you could do that. I only ever bothered to learn enough to make a lock, add autoclose, add/remove players and factions, and change it between private and public. Still have absolutely no idea about some aspects, especially massiveshops (I think that's what they call it anyway, cant think very well right now)

 

[Mecharic]

<complaint> Please keep the thread on topic. I was asked to give my feedback, and it becomes quite difficult to me to focus on the actual thread, when everyone believes they should use this thread to post unrelated faction wishes. <\complaint>

Anyhow, Empires, the most wished faction addition ever (perhaps except for that new fancy rank). I might just not be visionary enough, but what exactly do you want with empires? Taxes aside for a moment, the only thing I see here is empire chat and some special feeling people have when they type a command to commit to an empire. I cannot see why we need empires, like really. It makes the faction system more complex, but what for, how do they actually improve gameplay? I might just be missing it, but I cannot see any advantages here.

Click to shrink...

The way I see it is that it a) gives people something to aspire to, ruling an empire. It also enables largest wars (empire v empire instead of faction v faction). Lastly, it gives real authority to someone who holds the position of Emperor while making it harder/impossible for subfactions to leech off another persons wealth/protection without giving anything in return.

Right now, many players (like me) have done pretty much everything we've been interested in - I've run a Bank, ruled a Noble Family in Roleplay, built numerous towns, cities, castles, and factions, got a decent heap of money and items to live off of, and really don't have anything more to try and aim for... but building an Empire... I'd do that. It would get my attention - the work needed to organize, expand, defend, and maintain an empire would definitely be something I'd want to try. And I can't be the only player who wants to do that.

The taxes will be the same for all claims, empire claims or others. Changing claim taxes for certain claim types is a ridiculous way to change peoples behaviour into using the faction plugin in a specific way, much like when a government puts extra taxes on cigarettes. But while a government might have a compelling reason to stop people from smoking, we really shouldn't dictate if anyone joins an empire or not through taxing.

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This is a null argument - the mere existence of taxes causes people to change their behavior regarding factions (some people don't join them to avoid taxes, others don't claim as much, others refuse to accept people who don't have money. Always needing to worry about where your next tax payment will come from is detrimental to literally every activity on MassiveCraft that needs a faction to be done. This would give a reason to be part of an Empire while also making it easier for factions to expand, survive, and get stuff done.

I haven't even begun discussing if it is worth the time to implement. Personally I feel there is several things in factions that is more important to work on. I'd really like a reworked access system or the ability to make custom ranks (trust me, that won't be easy). So I think we should focus on doing those things straight and then perhaps later revisit this idea.

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While I can understand the desire/need to rework things like /f access and the rank setups, I also think that "the most wished faction addition ever" should at least be factored onto that list through sheer public demand. Though I also understand if you don't want to bend to public demand on anything so that we don't get all spoiled and bratty about wanting stuff lol

 

[Madus]

The way I see it is that it a) gives people something to aspire to, ruling an empire. It also enables largest wars (empire v empire instead of faction v faction). Lastly, it gives real authority to someone who holds the position of Emperor while making it harder/impossible for subfactions to leech off another persons wealth/protection without giving anything in return.

Right now, many players (like me) have done pretty much everything we've been interested in - I've run a Bank, ruled a Noble Family in Roleplay, built numerous towns, cities, castles, and factions, got a decent heap of money and items to live off of, and really don't have anything more to try and aim for... but building an Empire... I'd do that. It would get my attention - the work needed to organize, expand, defend, and maintain an empire would definitely be something I'd want to try. And I can't be the only player who wants to do that.

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So an empire can't really be used for anything, other than giving people a feeling it is special because they have to type a few commands instead of a few messages.

This is a null argument - the mere existence of taxes causes people to change their behavior regarding factions (some people don't join them to avoid taxes, others don't claim as much, others refuse to accept people who don't have money. Always needing to worry about where your next tax payment will come from is detrimental to literally every activity on MassiveCraft that needs a faction to be done.

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It seems I wasn't clear enough. Taxes were made to discourage people from claiming extreme amounts of land, and yes to change their behaviour.

This would give a reason to be part of an Empire while also making it easier for factions to expand, survive, and get stuff done.

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Exactly my point. There is not really a reason to be part of an empire. But you are trying to create one because you think it is a good idea to be part of an empire, even though the real benefits are miniscule.

While I can understand the desire/need to rework things like /f access and the rank setups, I also think that "the most wished faction addition ever" should at least be factored onto that list through sheer public demand. Though I also understand if you don't want to bend to public demand on anything so that we don't get all spoiled and bratty about wanting stuff lol

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People do not know what they want before we show them. Had we tried to ask the player base for how our LWC replacement should be, we would probably be told to make something identical to LWC. We didn't and made something better. Nobody told me that tab completion would be cool, but I made it and it is pretty damn useful. Nobody told me changing configuration files from in-game was cool, but that allowed the pvp department to easily "fix" pvp. Right now we also need to add more premium features and find other income sources to keep the server alive, even though no player has asked for it. My point being that we cannot be dictated by public opinion, because public opinion doesn't see the larger picture.

 

[Zacatero]

But @Madus using that logic... we wouldnt know how useful or fun an empire system would be until we had it.

 

[Mecharic]

So an empire can't really be used for anything, other than giving people a feeling it is special because they have to type a few commands instead of a few messages.

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So out of:

1. Something to achieve/do.
2. Larger wars/conflicts.
3. Better control/centralization of empires.
4. Deeper factions experience.
5. Tax benefits for the poor.
6. Tax hikes for the wealthy.

You got "makes people feel good".

Deldrimor Dominion, the Qaliphate, Sunkiss Empire, even looser organisations like the 2nd Alliance and the old Hisokian Collective - they have membership, but can't really do anything because of the complete lack of support for organizations spanning multiple factions. This would enable them to become actual entities within the game, with coherent governments, true influence, and responsibilities. I know full well the idea isn't perfect, and would need banging out and some serious balancing, but that's the same for a lot of different things on Massive.

It seems I wasn't clear enough. Taxes were made to discourage people from claiming extreme amounts of land, and yes to change their behavior. Exactly my point. There is not really a reason to be part of an empire. But you are trying to create one because you think it is a good idea to be part of an empire, even though the real benefits are minuscule.

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Lets take taxes out then, Madus. Empire would provide the first 4 of the 6 add ons listed above: Something to achieve, Larger Conflicts, Better Inter-Faction Control, and a Deeper Factions Experience. All of which I think are good. As for reasons for a faction to be part of an empire, those already exist. Entities like DeldDom and the Qaliphate don't exist because they're a detriment, they exist because they provide something - this would just enable them to get something back in return.

People do not know what they want before we show them.

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I'm not entirely sure how to reply to this... it sounds downright oppressive, to be honest. "You aren't able to know what you want, so we'll tell you what you want even if you disagree." May as well remove the entire Suggestions section of the forums with that mindset.

Had we tried to ask the player base for how our LWC replacement should be, we would probably be told to make something identical to LWC. We didn't and made something better. Nobody told me that tab completion would be cool, but I made it and it is pretty damn useful. Nobody told me changing configuration files from in-game was cool, but that allowed the pvp department to easily "fix" pvp. Right now we also need to add more premium features and find other income sources to keep the server alive, even though no player has asked for it.

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And I, for one, greatly appreciate all of the hard work Staff do supporting the server. It's a thankless job, most of the time, and I know you don't get anything out of it. But what exactly does any of that have to do with a suggestion? I understand that you guys work incredibly hard adding things people don't ever even think need to be added but... why does that devalue the things we do think should be added?

My point being that we cannot be dictated by public opinion, because public opinion doesn't see the larger picture.

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I am not saying it should be decided solely by public opinion, only that you should factor in the wants and desires of your players when deciding what to do. Don't make them the sole guiding factor (god no! Some of us are really really stupid xD) but don't ignore us solely because we aren't server staff. And if you think this would hurt the server overall, explain WHY. Don't just say "you don't see the larger picture" show us that larger picture, if you're allowed.

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I mean no disrespect by any of my comments. If they are taken in a disrespectful way or found to be insulting, I apologize. I tend to speak my mind, and that can get me into trouble - but if I just remain silent... well, I don't consider silence a good option. Communication is the start of progress. But I must say that I found your post to be... well, a tad bit disrespectful and you seemed to disregard entirely things you didn't agree with, rather than attempting to respond to them. Honestly, it makes me not want to continue this discussion and to not suggest things to the server, even if I think they'd be good ideas. Sorry if that's not how you meant it, that's just how I took it.

 

[Aespair]

So out of:

1. Something to achieve/do.
2. Larger wars/conflicts.
3. Better control/centralization of empires.
4. Deeper factions experience.
5. Tax benefits for the poor.
6. Tax hikes for the wealthy.

You got "makes people feel good".

Deldrimor Dominion, the Qaliphate, Sunkiss Empire, even looser organisations like the 2nd Alliance and the old Hisokian Collective - they have membership, but can't really do anything because of the complete lack of support for organizations spanning multiple factions. This would enable them to become actual entities within the game, with coherent governments, true influence, and responsibilities. I know full well the idea isn't perfect, and would need banging out and some serious balancing, but that's the same for a lot of different things on Massive.



Lets take taxes out then, Madus. Empire would provide the first 4 of the 6 add ons listed above: Something to achieve, Larger Conflicts, Better Inter-Faction Control, and a Deeper Factions Experience. All of which I think are good. As for reasons for a faction to be part of an empire, those already exist. Entities like DeldDom and the Qaliphate don't exist because they're a detriment, they exist because they provide something - this would just enable them to get something back in return.



I'm not entirely sure how to reply to this... it sounds downright oppressive, to be honest. "You aren't able what you want, so we'll tell you what you want even if you disagree." May as well remove the entire Suggestions section of the forums with that mindset.



And I, for one, greatly appreciate all of the hard work Staff do supporting the server. It's a thankless job, most of the time, and I know you don't get anything out of it. But what exactly does any of that have to do with a suggestion? I understand that you guys work incredibly hard adding things people don't ever even think need to be added but... why does that devalue the things we do think should be added?



I am not saying it should be decided solely by public opinion, only that you should factor in the wants and desires of your players when deciding what to do. Don't make them the sole guiding factor (god no! Some of us are really really stupid xD) but don't ignore us solely because we aren't server staff. And if you think this would hurt the server overall, explain WHY. Don't just say "you don't see the larger picture" show us that larger picture, if you're allowed.

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I mean no disrespect by any of my comments. If they are taken in a disrespectful way or found to be insulting, I apologize. I tend to speak my mind, and that can get me into trouble - but if I just remain silent... well, I don't consider silence a good option. Communication is the start of progress. But I must say that I found your post to be... well, a tad bit disrespectful and you seemed to disregard entirely things you didn't agree with, rather than attempting to respond to them. Honestly, it makes me not want to continue this discussion and to not suggest things to the server, even if I think they'd be good ideas. Sorry if that's not how you meant it, that's just how I took it.

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This. Because of the lack of an Empire plugin, the lack of an organized conglomeration of factions, me and Mech are sitting around with our thumbs up our rears because we have no drive or goal to achieve with the 2A. We made a convo, said "lol we are an Alliance now," and that's about it. We have done absolutely nothing in-game with it because 1. I can't remember for the life of me which factions are in the damn thing, 2. I can't find out which of the factions are online except from /f f'ing them all (which gets real tiring when there's seven factions in it) and 3. They all stay the same thing as allies because we can't make them something special or something more.

 

[Made_By]

@Madus If you say that the point of an Empire would just be to make people feel good would that not then be the same with factions?

This has been in demand for a while now because of the dying politics and faction interactions over the years. A plug-in like this that would aid greater organisations in communicatingon a larger scales, allows realistic chance of territory domination amongst worlds were singular factions or player-made empires wouldn't be able to achieve, revitalizes the faction politics bringing bigger and most likely larger scaled wars but also sews the chasm separating the pvp and rp communities by offering factions a chance for something to fight for and represent in the factions world.

 

[Zacatero]

You could easily say the same thing about nicknames or faction titles. Just because it's a little bit of extra embellishments isn't a bad thing

 

[Legles101]

Imagine if the USA stayed as thirteen seperate colonies instead.

 

[Zacatero]

Bump

 

[Mecharic]

@Madus - Never did get a reply to my earlier post. At least explain what you think an Empire expansion would do to harm the server.

 

[Madus]

So out of:

1. Something to achieve/do.
2. Larger wars/conflicts.
3. Better control/centralization of empires.
4. Deeper factions experience.
5. Tax benefits for the poor.
6. Tax hikes for the wealthy.

You got "makes people feel good".

Deldrimor Dominion, the Qaliphate, Sunkiss Empire, even looser organisations like the 2nd Alliance and the old Hisokian Collective - they have membership, but can't really do anything because of the complete lack of support for organizations spanning multiple factions. This would enable them to become actual entities within the game, with coherent governments, true influence, and responsibilities. I know full well the idea isn't perfect, and would need banging out and some serious balancing, but that's the same for a lot of different things on Massive.

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Except for the taxes, you haven't at all explained how this will give better control of factions how this will create larger wars (nobody stops you from making empire wars today) nor how it will give a better factions experience. So I take this as a confirmation of my statement that it isn't really useful at all.

I'm not entirely sure how to reply to this... it sounds downright oppressive, to be honest. "You aren't able to know what you want, so we'll tell you what you want even if you disagree." May as well remove the entire Suggestions section of the forums with that mindset.

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I was more or less quoting Steve Jobs, because one of the most successful companies on earth was built upon the idea of showing people what features their tech products should have and not ask them. I am not trying to say that I can be as visionary as Steve Jobs, but it still applies that people who are not used to creating products (or in this case developing plugins) are usually bad at it.

And I, for one, greatly appreciate all of the hard work Staff do supporting the server. It's a thankless job, most of the time, and I know you don't get anything out of it. But what exactly does any of that have to do with a suggestion? I understand that you guys work incredibly hard adding things people don't ever even think need to be added but... why does that devalue the things we do think should be added?

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Let me be clear. What I said was a list of things most players would not have thought of if they were asked what they wanted. I tried to assert my previous statement.

I am not saying it should be decided solely by public opinion, only that you should factor in the wants and desires of your players when deciding what to do. Don't make them the sole guiding factor (god no! Some of us are really really stupid xD) but don't ignore us solely because we aren't server staff.

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You aren't ignored just because you aren't server staff, but as with any other suggestion I take time to think if it would actually benefit the server compared to what else I could do. Often other staff members says "this would be cool and that would be cool" and most of the time ti is really cool, but sadly most of those ideas are never implemented either.

And if you think this would hurt the server overall, explain WHY. Don't just say "you don't see the larger picture" show us that larger picture, if you're allowed.

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First of all empires make an already complex plugin even more complex. Complexity is bad because it makes it more difficult to use for people. Sometimes that complexity allows us to make even better plugins (MassiveLock for instance, it is really fucking cool, but sadly a tad advanced for some players), but I see no real benefit with the things mentioned. You say better control and deeper experience, but you don't mention how.
Second of all, there is tons of things that could be done to the Factions plugin (customisable ranks for one) that would add actual benefit and make the plugin more enjoyable.
For the last part there is also other things to work on. Currently we need to improve the premium package in order to secure revenue to thes server (among other things we do to make revenue) which most people don't think of.

I mean no disrespect by any of my comments. If they are taken in a disrespectful way or found to be insulting, I apologize. I tend to speak my mind, and that can get me into trouble - but if I just remain silent... well, I don't consider silence a good option. Communication is the start of progress. But I must say that I found your post to be... well, a tad bit disrespectful and you seemed to disregard entirely things you didn't agree with, rather than attempting to respond to them. Honestly, it makes me not want to continue this discussion and to not suggest things to the server, even if I think they'd be good ideas. Sorry if that's not how you meant it, that's just how I took it.

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I did not find anything you said disrespectful. If I said anything disrespectful I am sorry for that it was not my intention.
Please tell what what I dismissed instead of replying to, I thought I had replied to everything you said, but I might have failed (I am only a human after all).