Varran Lore Theory

[flareskies]

Due to popular request, I made a whole new thread for this theory I posted some time ago. Enjoy!!

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Who's ready to see a dead thread revived! I know I am!

Hello everyone and welcome back to LORE THEORY with your favorite Tigran- *COUGH* I mean Varran, Shae Wren!

As much as I wish I could use information from my old theories, Varrans got a rewrite and I cant garuntee info from the past is still compliant, so this theory will be entirely based upon Varrans after the rewrite was made... with a hint of older lore that I cant imagine would change even after the rewrite. Lets hop into it!

Now in recent RP events, @MonMarty held a lovely little event where he played an oracle who could tell you the truth of any event in history's past. I saw a lot of great questions proposed but I opted to use mine in the most predictable way possible. Looking for Varran information. More specifically, I asked the Oracle what the truth was of the Fallen Varran Empire. What the culture was like, what led to its downfall, and why the history was erased. This is, word for word, the answer I got.

We see a land torn from south to north, a land in conflict but not at war. A border made of pearlescent and brass. A border of magic and machine. Great brass claws gnawing at the forests like termites but in the thousands, the cries of the pearlescent and the trampling of soil beneath. Towering sandstone spires of water and fire, of harmony in elements. A city like the body, brass lines coursing with the warm water of life like that of a body. Magic was not the hunted by the hunter. It was not the outlier, but the norm. And there stood the feline with their defiance of this art most unholy to Baskarr, to call upon her people to purge the jungles with fire and stone. Great brass vessels of fire and bellowing heat, singing away the plague that was magic. But magic was the norm. And fire can only burn in the absence of the cold. And the cold did came. And with the cold an Empire was lost. A time was lost. A future was lost. The sand stone spires reduced to rubble, the brass rotting away at the seams, and the fires growing dim with the water seeping away in the sand like the memories of those who once bore these truths. Magic persevered. And Baskarr became all but forgotten.

While IC'ly there's no way to know of the Oracle was telling the truth or not, I write this theory with the OOC notion that Marty was telling the truth. And right off the bat this tells us a great many things.

• The technology of the Varran Empire was far beyond just basic electricity.
• Its confirmed that Baskarr was in fact a deity of that time. Many scholars thought maybe Baskarr was just a powerful leader figure. This is now confirmed to be wrong.
• Magic was in wide abundance before the fall of the Varran Empire.

Now here's where things get tricky, its easy to assume a lot of things, until you take the time to read things word for word and take it apart piece by piece. Lets divide this up. I'll talk about what I can deduce of old Varran culture first.

The biggest chunk of info we get on the culture is based upon the technology they had. This revolves greatly around fire and water and sandstone spires. One thing that caught my attention was the quote "brass lines coursing through the warm water of life like that of a body." The body is what spreads life to the entire system, so im led to believe this means brass was used to deliver electricity across the city as well, but in a very specific means. The mention of water in this sentence as well as being mentioned many other times leads me to believe that buried beneath the sands of Varran ruins, you would likely find water channels, and at the bottom, more brass wires.
The idea is that the sandstone spires were in fact lightening rods. And as stated, water was running through these spires, then if electricity struck, and it was connected to the water, and the water is connected to the channels, then if brass were placed at the bottom, then when the water conducted electricity, then they had an external way to get power. I also believe they had a double use for the water, not just as a conductor, but also as a producer. if they had a constant flow of water through maybe a water wheel, then they could produce electricity that way as well.

Now that i've told you my speculations on their technology, this leads into the "conflict" mentioned. It speaks of great brass claws tearing into trees. This is likely what caused the whole conflict with the Nelfin in the first place. Their technology and expanding empire likely required a lot of resources. And upon destroying their lands, the Nelfin and Varran races came into conflict. Its likely that in taking resources, the Varran also took the Nelfin of the land they destroyed and enslaved them in the process. At this point, its a widespread belief that the Varran empire fell because of a war between the Nelfin and Varran empires. This is false. First off, it says explicitly that they were in conflict, but not at war. The Nelfins were not the cause of the destruction of the empire. Well. Then what was you ask?

This is where i'd like to stress a major point.
According to the quotes "Magic was the norm" and "magic was not the hunted, but the hunter" I can deduce that magic was running rampant at this time.
Not only that, but that would make Varrans a minority. They were likely by no means a small race, however in comparison so magic users, aka Nelfin, they were likely far smaller an empire. With that i'll move onto yet another point.
We know that The Varran Empire rose after the first void invasion and likely took inspiration from the Seraph technology that remained. We also know that the Varrans stood heavily against magic as heretical and did take measures to try and wipe it out with said technology. However its here that the message says that fire can only thrive in the absence of the cold. And the cold did come. I take this in both a literal and metaphorical sense. Why?

Put together what we've talked about so far.

• Magic is the norm. Magic is in abundance.
• The Varrans are causing conflict with magic users.
• This is a conflict between the south and the north.

Its possible a war was about to begin, however something far worse stopped it. The war didn't wipe out the Varran Empire, The second void invasion did. Just like how the first one took out even the Seraph.

We know for a fact there is still a slight tear in the north where the Drowdar stay so they can kill anything that slips out and keep the rest of the world from peril. A tear in the north.
We already know that Varrans lived in more southern regions, so that means the magic users were in the northern region. War was about to break out, and possibly a giant battle occurred when the Varrans tried to wipe out magic. When this battle took place, the vast amount of magic involved is what finally triggered the second void invasion.
The cold came, and the cold wiped out the Varran Empire.
Its likely the Varrans faced near extinction from this. The nelfin likely suffered less if just for the fact they were in far greater numbers. What Varrans survived were likely taken into captivity and made into slaves by the Nelfin population that remained. Unlikely they could fight back with the empire lost and their numbers so thin. Thus started their enslavement.
However if this is the case, then why did the Nelfin go out of their way to erase all the history?

I take a quote from the wiki.

• A lot of information in Ailor and Elven libraries is often intentionally tampered with by Elves. Even in modern days, many Elves have been arrested for tampering with historical records to make Varrans appear more stupid or less desirable within the Regalian Empire, to their political ends.

Compare this information with the new info above and the answer becomes clear. Despite their magic and larger numbers, the Nelfin were losing the battle.
Varran technology, which we now know was far beyond just basic electricity, was too advanced to combat with magic, and the Nelfin were failing. Had the invasion not come, the Varrans likely would have wiped out the elves. Not only is this a devastating idea to the Nelfin race as a whole, but to their pride as well. The only way to to cover up their failure is to make Varran look as dumb as possible to make it unbelievable that they ever had the technology to beat them.
And since the surviving Varran were struggling just to maintain their race from extinction, there was no one to stop the Nelfin from destroying everything. After doing so, they boldly took up the lie that they defeated the empire, when in truth, they were just survivors. And with no history to prove otherwise, the story was believed and has been to this day.

BUT HEY!
Thats just a theory!
A LORE THEORY!
Thanks for reading!

Also before I finish this up, the only reason I found the motivation and the creativity to figure this all out was because my awesome friend @Rassidic was willing to debate all this with me and I want to send out a huge thanks. Never would have figured this all out with their help. Feel free to leave a comment or a theory of your own!! I love to hear your thoughts!

-Pakkleaf/flareskies.

 

[Legoclub22]

The part about water like life in a body makes me think of running and heated water. Plumbing.

Say, what continent did the Varran live on?

 

[flareskies]

The part about water like life in a body makes me think of running and heated water. Plumbing.

Say, what continent did the Varran live on?

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From what I remember ruins are mostly located in Ithania, mostly in the deserts or jungle.
Where the official giant varran empire originally sat isn't known, however the wiki does state that it bordered against the north of Daendroc, so its likely located somewhere nearby. Daendroc and Ithania are on the same continent so Ithania might just be where the Empire is located. I couldnt tell if Ithania was north of Daendroc or not.

 

[Legoclub22]

From what I remember ruins are mostly located in Ithania, mostly in the deserts or jungle.
Where the official giant varran empire originally sat isn't known, however the wiki does state that it bordered against the north of Daendroc, so its likely located somewhere nearby. Daendroc and Ithania are on the same continent so Ithania might just be where the Empire is located. I couldnt tell if Ithania was north of Daendroc or not.

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This is the map or Aloria on the wiki, though I've heard it is outdated and not accurate. I'd assume it's accurate as maps would he IC, however.

Here we can see Daendroc is to the south of Ithania.

I was wondering if they could be in some way connected to the Temple Orphan, but it turns out those aren't in Daendroc like I thought. Seems like they're in Solangia, instead.

 

[The Unknown]

Fascinating read! This all looks remarkably sturdy and well put together, and I wouldn't be surprised if a hefty portion of it is true.

 

[flareskies]

This is the map or Aloria on the wiki, though I've heard it is outdated and not accurate. I'd assume it's accurate as maps would he IC, however.

Here we can see Daendroc is to the south of Ithania.

I was wondering if they could be in some way connected to the Temple Orphan, but it turns out those aren't in Daendroc like I thought. Seems like they're in Solangia, instead.

Click to shrink...

Assuming the map is still accurate /enough/ then its likely the official Varran empire is buried in Ithania. And as cool as temple orphans would be to be involved with this story, sadly they are wayyy too far away.

 

[Legoclub22]

Assuming the map is still accurate /enough/ then its likely the official Varran empire is buried in Ithania. And as cool as temple orphans would be to be involved with this story, sadly they are wayyy too far away.

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Yeah I realized that while writing my post lol

Fascinating read! This all looks remarkably sturdy and well put together, and I wouldn't be surprised if a hefty portion of it is true.

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Will we ever find out what is true, though? Or will it remain hidden in the mists of time?

 

[flareskies]

Its possible with the new rise in Varran players that quests to uncover ruins will pop up. @Legoclub22

 

[Legoclub22]

Its possible with the new rise in Varran players that quests to uncover ruins will pop up. @Legoclub22

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Possible, though how many of those Varran are interested in Anthropology is questionable.

 

[Sozzer]

snip

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'cept there's a lot of issues here

- The Varran were defeated and enslaved centuries before the last Void Invasion, and only started breaking free when the cataclysm shattered the Elven Empire.
- The references to "the cold" are unclear, and could just as easily refer to just the fires of industry dying out after the Elven Empire conquered the Varran.
- "Brass lines coursing with life" and the "water and fire" and such don't seem like references to electricity, but to steam power. While there's indications of some electricity use, those definitely don't point to it - brass is much less effective as a conductor than copper, but better suited to water and steam work. And you can't suggest they had plenty of brass but not copper, since copper's actually used in making brass.
- Baskarr could also be a leader. The phrasing is never clear on that, and the only direct references are Baskarr being forgotten, and calling on the Varran to fight magic, both of which could apply to a leader as well.
- War is, in fact, a type of conflict.

 

[RightChat]

Spoiler

 

[soapboxstage]

Kewl

 

[flareskies]

'cept there's a lot of issues here

- The Varran were defeated and enslaved centuries before the last Void Invasion, and only started breaking free when the cataclysm shattered the Elven Empire.
- The references to "the cold" are unclear, and could just as easily refer to just the fires of industry dying out after the Elven Empire conquered the Varran.
- "Brass lines coursing with life" and the "water and fire" and such don't seem like references to electricity, but to steam power. While there's indications of some electricity use, those definitely don't point to it - brass is much less effective as a conductor than copper, but better suited to water and steam work. And you can't suggest they had plenty of brass but not copper, since copper's actually used in making brass.
- Baskarr could also be a leader. The phrasing is never clear on that, and the only direct references are Baskarr being forgotten, and calling on the Varran to fight magic, both of which could apply to a leader as well.
- War is, in fact, a type of conflict.

Click to shrink...

1. The wiki states there have been five void invasions last I checked, and I stated it was the SECOND void invasion that did this. Not the cataclysm.
2. Yes they are unclear. This is a theory. I quite literally just made the best guess I could.
3. Its possible they had steam yes, but I pointed more towards electricity because first, they took their technology from the Seraph, who were far beyond steam. And two, Copper and brass are huge conductors and thus points to electricity, and three, in an expedition to the ruins it stated the temple has brass WIRES not tubes or such made for steam.
4. Leader figure or not she was still revered as a goddess and this was never made clear to scholars. That was my point. Scholars theorized that Baskarr was not a deity to the Varrans in any sense and ONLY a leader figure. This proves it wrong due to Baskarr being used in association to the word "Unholy" which is a very religious term.
5. War is a type of conflict, I might even agree with you... except the oracle literally said "in conflict but NOT AT WAR." So this point is invalid.

You made some good points but unless you have solid proof to prove my points wrong then please dont nitpick my theory when its obvious why I made the deductions I did.

 

[Sozzer]

1. The wiki states there have been five void invasions last I checked, and I stated it was the SECOND void invasion that did this. Not the cataclysm.
2. Yes they are unclear. This is a theory. I quite literally just made the best guess I could.
3. Its possible they had steam yes, but I pointed more towards electricity because first, they took their technology from the Seraph, who were far beyond steam. And two, Copper and brass are huge conductors and thus points to electricity, and three, in an expedition to the ruins it stated the temple has brass WIRES not tubes or such made for steam.
4. Leader figure or not she was still revered as a goddess and this was never made clear to scholars. That was my point. Scholars theorized that Baskarr was not a deity to the Varrans in any sense and ONLY a leader figure. This proves it wrong due to Baskarr being used in association to the word "Unholy" which is a very religious term.
5. War is a type of conflict, I might even agree with you... except the oracle literally said "in conflict but NOT AT WAR." So this point is invalid.

You made some good points but unless you have solid proof to prove my points wrong then please dont nitpick my theory when its obvious why I made the deductions I did.

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sorry, the moon is a hologram but unless you have solid proof to prove my points wrong then please dont nitpick my theory !!


despite the completely backwards idea of how the burden of proof works, i'll bite anyway.
1. the elves only rose after the fourth, and later caused the fifth. so if you're claiming any of them had anything to do with it you're completely wrong. the first void invasion was the fall of the seraph, second and third were the falls of unknown empires, fourth was the meraic, and the fifth and final void invasion was the elves
2. thats still a problem when your entire grounds for bringing the void invasion into it and by extension the entire claim about their history - which falls apart on closer inspection anyway - is a loose assumption about what it means
3. brass is, at best, less than 30% as conductive as copper. it's not a very good conductor at all. why go through all the effort of getting the zinc, making bronze, and putting it to use as wiring when copper is better, more available, easier to work with, and must be available as they were making bronze with it. also good job not looking at the mentions of "fire and water", the literal direct references to water, etc. and water is actually not really that great an electrical conductor compared to metals like copper, so no, you would not have water channels for the lightning unless you want to waste a huge portion of the energy, not to mention randomly spread steam everywhere because lightning kinda heats things up a lot
4. or maybe they used unholy because they're a religious leader lmao. there's nothing that indicates a deity that couldn't just as easily be explained by a religious or even just quasi-religious leader
5. you may notice the fall of the varran empire is specified as a "then", that is, as something that comes after that point described prior. the point where they're in conflict but not at war. such as, say, when the sociopolitical conflict over magic vs technology descended into war because the varran were chopping down entire forests. the war the elves won, which is something you seem to be trying really hard to deny lmao

 

[flareskies]

sorry, the moon is a hologram but unless you have solid proof to prove my points wrong then please dont nitpick my theory !!


despite the completely backwards idea of how the burden of proof works, i'll bite anyway.
1. the elves only rose after the fourth, and later caused the fifth. so if you're claiming any of them had anything to do with it you're completely wrong. the first void invasion was the fall of the seraph, second and third were the falls of unknown empires, fourth was the meraic, and the fifth and final void invasion was the elves
2. thats still a problem when your entire grounds for bringing the void invasion into it and by extension the entire claim about their history - which falls apart on closer inspection anyway - is a loose assumption about what it means
3. brass is, at best, less than 30% as conductive as copper. it's not a very good conductor at all. why go through all the effort of getting the zinc, making bronze, and putting it to use as wiring when copper is better, more available, easier to work with, and must be available as they were making bronze with it. also good job not looking at the mentions of "fire and water", the literal direct references to water, etc. and water is actually not really that great an electrical conductor compared to metals like copper, so no, you would not have water channels for the lightning unless you want to waste a huge portion of the energy, not to mention randomly spread steam everywhere because lightning kinda heats things up a lot
4. or maybe they used unholy because they're a religious leader lmao. there's nothing that indicates a deity that couldn't just as easily be explained by a religious or even just quasi-religious leader
5. you may notice the fall of the varran empire is specified as a "then", that is, as something that comes after that point described prior. the point where they're in conflict but not at war. such as, say, when the sociopolitical conflict over magic vs technology descended into war because the varran were chopping down entire forests. the war the elves won, which is something you seem to be trying really hard to deny lmao

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Im going to ask you dont post on my thread again.

1. I never claimed the elves rose up in my theory. I didnt even claim their empire existed yet. Im actually fully aware that the Varran Empire supposedly predates the Elven Empire. I said they were simply in large numbers at the time. "Magic was the norm. Magic was not the hunted by the hunter." These phrases heavily imply there was a great deal of magic and nelfin at that time. Even you said the second and third were the falls of unknown empires. What if one of those empires was the Varran one? If elves alone could cause one invasion is it not possible that the largest source of magic, the elves, would do it again?

2. I made my assumption with the "cold" because the north, a cold place, is greatly associated with void invasions, considering there is still a tear there that the Drowdar have to guard. There isnt much evidence that points to much else so I went with the most plausible option. And even if it wasn't an invasion that took them out, its still made very clear the Varran had advanced technology that the elves couldnt hold back since the Varran were tearing down entire forests without resistance.

3. And you're still ignoring the fact that the expeditions revealed the ruins to have WIRES. While brass maybe isnt the best conductor, there have been no references to steam or steam technology. Fire and water can have many uses, and maybe they did have steam, im not denying that, however there is more evidence to point that they relied heavily on electricity instead.

4. You based this off a "maybe." Show me some actual evidence. And i'll say it again, i'm not denying that maybe she doubled as both a goddess and leader to them, however considering the terminology used, and the murals depicting her on a goddess like way, and the giant statues made of her everywhere, its safe to assume she was considered a deity. Even in Regalia while we do have some statues of our most recent Emperor, you dont see ONLY him being portrayed everywhere. If Baskarr had only been a leader figure, that means there would have been others before her. Why were there no statues of them? No reference to other Varran who supposedly held Baskarr's title in the past? All evidence points to her being a goddess to the Varrans.

5. Quite literally I dont understand this point at all. And if you're playing with terminology now then you've got a double standard since I clearly cant use "Unholy" to prove my point but you can use vague terms to prove yours.. The fact remains that it was stated "A land in conflict but not at war." There is no terminology that can be argued against this. That phrase is solid, and if they were not at war, then the war was entirely made up by the elves. And you can demand that the war HAD to have happen, but how you can be so sure when the elves erased every scrap of history on it? If they won, why would they do that? It makes no sense. I also refer back to my OLDER Varran theory to a remark Monmarty said.
"The actual reality is far more depressing for the Elves."
He also stated the Varran empire was believed to predate the Elven Empire. If this was true, then that gives all the more evidence that the Varrans likely kicked the Elves in the butt with their tech since they didn't have their Empire to fall back to nor the supplies or organization/government to properly fight a war. So again, provide me with evidence.

 

[Sozzer]

Im going to ask you dont post on my thread again.

1. I never claimed the elves rose up in my theory. I didnt even claim their empire existed yet. Im actually fully aware that the Varran Empire supposedly predates the Elven Empire. I said they were simply in large numbers at the time. "Magic was the norm. Magic was not the hunted by the hunter." These phrases heavily imply there was a great deal of magic and nelfin at that time. Even you said the second and third were the falls of unknown empires. What if one of those empires was the Varran one? If elves alone could cause one invasion is it not possible that the largest source of magic, the elves, would do it again?

2. I made my assumption with the "cold" because the north, a cold place, is greatly associated with void invasions, considering there is still a tear there that the Drowdar have to guard. There isnt much evidence that points to much else so I went with the most plausible option. And even if it wasn't an invasion that took them out, its still made very clear the Varran had advanced technology that the elves couldnt hold back since the Varran were tearing down entire forests without resistance.

3. And you're still ignoring the fact that the expeditions revealed the ruins to have WIRES. While brass maybe isnt the best conductor, there have been no references to steam or steam technology. Fire and water can have many uses, and maybe they did have steam, im not denying that, however there is more evidence to point that they relied heavily on electricity instead.

4. You based this off a "maybe." Show me some actual evidence. And i'll say it again, i'm not denying that maybe she doubled as both a goddess and leader to them, however considering the terminology used, and the murals depicting her on a goddess like way, and the giant statues made of her everywhere, its safe to assume she was considered a deity. Even in Regalia while we do have some statues of our most recent Emperor, you dont see ONLY him being portrayed everywhere. If Baskarr had only been a leader figure, that means there would have been others before her. Why were there no statues of them? No reference to other Varran who supposedly held Baskarr's title in the past? All evidence points to her being a goddess to the Varrans.

5. Quite literally I dont understand this point at all. And if you're playing with terminology now then you've got a double standard since I clearly cant use "Unholy" to prove my point but you can use vague terms to prove yours.. The fact remains that it was stated "A land in conflict but not at war." There is no terminology that can be argued against this. That phrase is solid, and if they were not at war, then the war was entirely made up by the elves. And you can demand that the war HAD to have happen, but how you can be so sure when the elves erased every scrap of history on it? If they won, why would they do that? It makes no sense. I also refer back to my OLDER Varran theory to a remark Monmarty said.
"The actual reality is far more depressing for the Elves."
He also stated the Varran empire was believed to predate the Elven Empire. If this was true, then that gives all the more evidence that the Varrans likely kicked the Elves in the butt with their tech since they didn't have their Empire to fall back to nor the supplies or organization/government to properly fight a war. So again, provide me with evidence.

Click to shrink...

1. the elves did not EXIST at the time. they evolved from the meraic
2. i mean they got crushed in a war lmao. sounds like they coulde hold em back
3. no, i'm not ignoring that. i'm pointing out that if we're basing it off this (now-outdated) statement, there's no indication of electricity. you can't have your cake and eat it too - are we basing things off this, or off the current lore? that aside, there have been a lot of references to steam if you stop trying to pretend they aren't there.
4. here, how about this. why don't you show me some actual evidence? not just "they're portrayed as a godlike figure", because guess what, so are religious leaders. her being the only one could just as easily be her being the first. i'm not saying they can't be a deity, i'm saying it's not clear enough to make a definitive statement.
5. if you don't understand the point, there's not much i can do lmao. reread it and see if you can figure it out i guess. and i can state that the war had to happen, because it's very clearly stated, all over the wiki. as is the elves winning. as for why they erased history, because victory in war isn't some glorious thing. there are losses, in both people and territory. a proud race like the altalar won't want to admit it was anything but one-sided.

also the second civilisation only lasted five years and the third relied on magic lol

 

[flareskies]

1. the elves did not EXIST at the time. they evolved from the meraic
2. i mean they got crushed in a war lmao. sounds like they coulde hold em back
3. no, i'm not ignoring that. i'm pointing out that if we're basing it off this (now-outdated) statement, there's no indication of electricity. you can't have your cake and eat it too - are we basing things off this, or off the current lore? that aside, there have been a lot of references to steam if you stop trying to pretend they aren't there.
4. here, how about this. why don't you show me some actual evidence? not just "they're portrayed as a godlike figure", because guess what, so are religious leaders. her being the only one could just as easily be her being the first. i'm not saying they can't be a deity, i'm saying it's not clear enough to make a definitive statement.
5. if you don't understand the point, there's not much i can do lmao. reread it and see if you can figure it out i guess. and i can state that the war had to happen, because it's very clearly stated, all over the wiki. as is the elves winning. as for why they erased history, because victory in war isn't some glorious thing. there are losses, in both people and territory. a proud race like the altalar won't want to admit it was anything but one-sided.

also the second civilisation only lasted five years and the third relied on magic lol

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1. I looked up both the Meraic history and Nelfin history and nowhere is this mentioned. There is speculation that Drow's are related to Maraya, but nothing else.

2. Thats not what you said. Please stop.

3. Just because lore is older doesnt mean its wrong. Some pieces of lore are still very much valid. And if there have been references to steam, by all means, point them out instead of just laughing and saying they are there. Again, present evidence.

4. Religious leaders dont get their image put into a statue and carved into murals, especially when past leaders werent given the same luxury. That IS the evidence. The fact they made giant statues, murals, and use religious terminology surrounding her and only her, all point to the fact she was a deity. You have no counter evidence.

5. No. The wiki states the elves CLAIM to have won the war. Nothing is definite. And prideful or not, if they supposedly won, they wouldn't feel any need to erase or tamper with history books even now! They never did that in regards to any other war. So why the Varrans?

Once more I will ask you do not post here again! I will report you if you do. Please leave me alone.

 

[Sozzer]

1. I looked up both the Meraic history and Nelfin history and nowhere is this mentioned. There is speculation that Drow's are related to Maraya, but nothing else.

2. Thats not what you said. Please stop.

3. Just because lore is older doesnt mean its wrong. Some pieces of lore are still very much valid. And if there have been references to steam, by all means, point them out instead of just laughing and saying they are there. Again, present evidence.

4. Religious leaders dont get their image put into a statue and carved into murals, especially when past leaders werent given the same luxury. That IS the evidence. The fact they made giant statues, murals, and use religious terminology surrounding her and only her, all point to the fact she was a deity. You have no counter evidence.

5. No. The wiki states the elves CLAIM to have won the war. Nothing is definite. And prideful or not, if they supposedly won, they wouldn't feel any need to erase or tamper with history books even now! They never did that in regards to any other war. So why the Varrans?

Once more I will ask you do not post here again! I will report you if you do. Please leave me alone.

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1. its pretty well established tho. each civilisation evolved from what was left of the last after the void invasion.
2. i was pointing out that your entire claim there is baseless
3. "Of water and fire", "Great brass vessels of fire and bellowing heat", and the references to water which then was lost. pretty safe to say that at the time of that statement it was intended the varran would be steam-based, especially since it was around the period of the short-lived interest in steam technology in lote.
4. ah yes, religious leaders are never given statues and murals
5. claim to? here, let me get some quotes, since you apparently haven't read it for a good few years. "The Elves won after a decade-long war, and proceeded to wipe out Varran civilization altogether. Their people were completely enslaved, and all historical records of this Varran Empire that dared to endanger Nelfin hegemony were destroyed." "Excavations in Ithania and further research into Elven scrolls reveal scraps of Varran history scattered around, yet Elves continue to try and destroy the Varran heritage to this day, mostly to hide a dark secret about their past conflicts. Once, before the full hegemony of the Elven Empire in Daendroc, it bordered a great and powerful Varran Empire in the north." (by the way, that last one makes it clear why they destroyed the history. they dont want to admit the varran empire existed at all.) "Relations between the people were always terrible; frequent border skirmishes occurred until a full-blown war erupted over ideological differences."

also feel free to report me, i'm not breaking any rules so it wont do anything.

 

[flareskies]

This is over. For the third time, leave.

This isn't a debate, this is you making up things and trying to tear down my work, and I will not argue it further.

 

[Sozzer]

This is over. For the third time, leave.

This isn't a debate, this is you making up things and trying to tear down my work, and I will not argue it further.

Click to shrink...

ah yes
i made up thousands of years of religious art and tradition, the wiki page for varran, and all the rest
i am truly devious, going back in time to found christianity just to poke holes in your lore theory

 

[HodlinG]

ah yes
i made up thousands of years of religious art and tradition, the wiki page for varran, and all the rest
i am truly devious, going back in time to found christianity just to poke holes in your lore theory

Click to shrink...

where's my evil rating when i need it

 

[NoRezForYou]

This is over. For the third time, leave.

This isn't a debate, this is you making up things and trying to tear down my work, and I will not argue it further.

Click to shrink...

You made a theory & someone else just went on to challenge your theory as incorrect. It almost comes off as you treat this as 100% fact & your entire life is about to crumble around you if it just happens to be wrong. Like you said-- It's a theory so all they're doing is theorizing on how you're incorrect with their own facts. Tho Sozzer adds needless aggression, I don't really see what gives you the right to silence another just 'cause they're telling you that you're wrong & making effort into giving points to why.

 

[BRBKing]

What if it was a different race that relied on magic than nelfin,

. "Magic was the norm. Magic was not the hunted by the hunter." These phrases heavily imply there was a great deal of magic and nelfin at that time.

Click to shrink...

Because evolution is a thing, and if the Drow are thought to come from the Maraya,

There is speculation that Drow's are related to Maraya, but nothing else.

Click to shrink...

why would the rest of the elves exist yet, because all the elf races look similar, they will have a common ancestor, so, the ancestors might have existed, but not elves as elves are now.
You stated that the Varran Empire fell around the time of the Second Void Invasion,

and I stated it was the SECOND void invasion that did this. Not the cataclysm.

Click to shrink...

So, the Elves didn't have an empire yet, Hell, they probably still weren't elves yet. Like Sozzer said,

the elves did not EXIST at the time. they evolved from the meraic

Click to shrink...

It seems to me that the void invasions are cyclic, and the cycle usually begins when an empire begins relying on magic. Why wouldn't they have some of the engineers be elemental mages?

 

[Legoclub22]

HMM

Looks to me like Sozzer


IS AN ALTALAR

 

[flareskies]

What if it was a different race that relied on magic than nelfin,

Because evolution is a thing, and if the Drow are thought to come from the Maraya,

why would the rest of the elves exist yet, because all the elf races look similar, they will have a common ancestor, so, the ancestors might have existed, but not elves as elves are now.
You stated that the Varran Empire fell around the time of the Second Void Invasion,

So, the Elves didn't have an empire yet, Hell, they probably still weren't elves yet. Like Sozzer said,


It seems to me that the void invasions are cyclic, and the cycle usually begins when an empire begins relying on magic. Why wouldn't they have some of the engineers be elemental mages?

Click to shrink...

1. Its true. Could've been another race. Since the running theme has been elves VS Varran I guess I assumed it was just the elves. Especially since they're known for magic. But i've no way to prove it.

2. You're right, Its highly possible they evolved from something else. I dont have time charts nor do I know when certain races popped up or evolved. Its hard to tell if the Varran fought the elven ancestors or newer age elves. Got me there.

3. You mean some Varran engineers be elemental mages? Its possible but the big issue is that according to the Oracle's words, the Varran defied magic and sought to wipe it out. If you meant nelfin then, hundred percent, they definitely had those.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Sozzer]

HMM

Looks to me like Sozzer


IS AN ALTALAR

Click to shrink...

i have been e x p o s e d

What if it was a different race that relied on magic than nelfin,

Because evolution is a thing, and if the Drow are thought to come from the Maraya,

why would the rest of the elves exist yet, because all the elf races look similar, they will have a common ancestor, so, the ancestors might have existed, but not elves as elves are now.
You stated that the Varran Empire fell around the time of the Second Void Invasion,

So, the Elves didn't have an empire yet, Hell, they probably still weren't elves yet. Like Sozzer said,


It seems to me that the void invasions are cyclic, and the cycle usually begins when an empire begins relying on magic. Why wouldn't they have some of the engineers be elemental mages?

Click to shrink...

they cant be from the time of the second void invasion, as mentioned
not sure where flareskies got that from, but they appeared after the fourth, same as the nelfin
its all spelled out on the wiki tbh
like 100% clearly, all in plain terms
varran use technology and begin chopping down forests, elves conquer varran after a war, wipe out their history to deny they were ever a threat, cataclysm collapses elven empire, varran break free
ninja edit: to clarify, i mean the altalar were the ones who went to war with em
at that time they were the only elven race
all the others later split off from the altalar around the time period of the cataclysm or after it
kathar through void rituals, cielothar through turning their backs on the empire, avanthar through interbreeding with ailor, drowdar through living on drowda, isldar through the dragon's magic
i feel like im forgetting one but still

 

[Percuriam]

I am going to lock this thread and do some cleaning as it has devolved. In the future please consider more constructive ways of expressing your opinions to each other that allow us to grow as a community, rather than sending hateful responses to each other.