Petition: Remove “welcome” Regal Reward

[aprader1]

(More information added as needed)
Recently a new add on to the server was released that gave regal rewards to players who said welcome to new players. The goal was to make them feel welcomed. Not only does this NOT make them feel welcomed but also HURTS them as well. Let me explain.

If a player logs in and receives a bunch of welcome messages they feel good. Then they later find out people WERE PAYED TO SAY IT. They don't really care, all they want is money.

What is the difference between a bot saying welcome and a payed person. Both of which mean nothing and neither care for the new person. The only difference is one is automatic.

This is harmful to new players because the only thing worse than not getting any welcome message is finding out no one actually welcomes you. At the very least, they are not greeted with hate but they are also not welcomed appropriately.

Please sign this petition to remove the welcome free money handouts and make our server better. This is not the way to make people stay. This is how you get rid of them.

Please make a comment asking to put your name on the petition.

Current names:
@aprader1

 

[Aeyris]

I think a reason massive had such a poor conversion rate for new players is because no one was aware of them. At the very least recognizing there is a problem is the first step to solving it. It doesn't matter what 99% of people do. 1% of people will msg them and help them get incorporated. I don't think you are qualified to make that summation. When people are first joining there is a very real difference between a Generic automated welcome and 50 people saying welcome. It's refreshing - most servers are heavily automated - this is handcrafted. Handcrafting a great player experience is how massive is going to survive.

I would wager that if you took away the reward but still left the notification people would still welcome newcomers. I don't think your issue is with the money - it's with the spam.

I think you have missed the point and I am firmly against this notion

 

[Aeyris]

Side note* New players I have talked to are like "Wow this server is friendly". In the past 99% of people who first joined wouldn't log out and not return. I think if you did some research you would come to a different conclusion. It also a great way for new people to make money since faction costs are so high rn. Most groups of players who join massive want their own faction - this a means to an end for them. And new players are much less about people getting paid to say welcome when the join (which they probably aren't even aware of until they make friends - at which point they don't really care) then they care about finding a good community. Moreover, they are likely very happy with the income it provides as they can use that money towards building a better server environment e.i builds, new factions and philanthropy.

I also would bet this isn't a long-term feature - just a hack to jumpstart a lethargic community.

 

[aprader1]

I think a reason massive had such a poor conversion rate for new players is because no one was aware of them. At the very least recognizing there is a problem is the first step to solving it. doesn't matter what 99% of people do. 1% of people will msg them and help them incorporated. I don't think you are qualified to make that summation. When people are first joining there is a very real difference between a Generic automated welcome and 50 people saying welcome. It's refreshing - most servers are heavily automated - this is handcrafted. Handcrafting a great player experience is how massive is going to survive.

I would wager that if you took away the reward but still left the notification people would still welcome newcomers. I don't think your issue is with the money - it's with the spam.

I think you have missed the point and I am firmly against this notion

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I think you misunderstand my statement. I would like to remove the REGAL REWARD for saying hello. As far as the notification goes, by all means yes please keep it. That part is not the argument. But if people are payed to say things they don't really have your best interest in mind. For example

Sales people. They are payed based on commission (typically). They get a percent of whatever you buy. Are they really going to have your best interest in mind or are they going to sell you the higher price items because they make more money. You feel cheated.

I know it's not exactly the same but the thought process is. Bottom line is if someone is payed to do something, they typically don't actually care about what they are doing. They just want easy money.

 

[Aeyris]

I would like to remove the REGAL REWARD for saying hello.

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The main arguments from your initial post were mostly not about money - I heard an argument about saying welcome doesn't make people stay on the server with some minor suggestions about why paying people isn't genuine. (Which I also disagree with). I don't think anyone feels cheated.

Properly understood, Sales peoples' jobs are to grow the number of customers a business has. Of course, they should be compensated for that. More people on massive craft is almost always a good thing. The best salespeople evangelizing a product. And most of the massive will preach for hours about this server. I don't see that as a bad thing, I see that as a big advantage.

Even if incentives are misaligned - there is no loser in the equation. This is not a zero-sum, dog eat dog feature you are making it out to be. Let me run through all the parties to make that clear.

A) The server: This feature has seen more people convert to regulars than any other effort in the history. More people is good for everyone involved. The server can convert more users to premium and invest in the server. It also lets staff drawl from a bigger talent pool (I know its only been like a week but this is speculative.)

B) Established players. Factions players are bored as heck. We want to be able to have big, active factions - we can do that without fresh faces. My faction is 2 days old we have 11 daily active members. I wouldn't have been able to do that without knowing to recruit. I am not the only faction that has benefited from this.

C) New players. It's really cool to see a ton of people welcome you even if they get a reward. And its something no other big server does really. As a new player, I would be happy to also get rewards as I am very poor. It also probably makes me feel like im part of a big meme and I will feel good about that. Furthermore, new players who meet are likely to stick together - people who stick together have a much larger impact on the server. I am also likely to get a couple people to invite me to their faction in the first few minutes rather than wait to figure out the r: chat. This lets new people play on the server.

conclusion: It doesn't really matter if people get paid. Even if you are correct and people feel cheated by being welcomed to a server. The net gains that this feature has is a lot bigger than it first looks. And I do think rewarding people for is totally okay because we are making the MassiveCraft proverbial pie alot bigger. The real downside is inflation - but even that is manageable.

 

[essentialess]

actually this server's economy is toxic to new players as a whole and we should remove regals

 

[Aeyris]

free use of capital is the biggest liberty a man can have. We arent going back to the stone ages.

Invest in shares of Lyrah ETF. 42% yoy gains.

 

[SirePyro]

The thing is, this is issue has no simple or easy answer. At this stage(as I have already stated on the MassiveWelcome thread), I feel the backlash from removing the regal reward would be overwhelming and easily make the potential benefits not worth it. I feel that we should have tried it without the regal reward to start, in order to see the "honest" community responses to new players, but removing it now would most likely be incredibly unpopular, and players who may have been relying on it for regals may end up leaving, putting staff in a tough spot. People are shouting at them about how to fix the problem and no one has a good solution - either they say "remove the reward!" or they say "no, no! It's perfect right now!", neither of which are exactly good ways to solve the problem. Remove it and much of the playerbase will revolt, or don't and a smaller portion will. Don't be surprised when they choose the latter. @aprader1

 

[Altalar]

give me more raggles n ill give new players a tour of massive.

 

[Gwyndo]

Personally I think a message letting you know there's a new player and that you could welcome them is enough.

No need to pay the person to do it, you should choose to welcome them if you want, not because you get some free money out of it.

 

[aprader1]

Personally I think a message letting you know there's a new player and that you could welcome them is enough.

No need to pay the person to do it, you should choose to welcome them if you want, not because you get some free money out of it.

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Exactly my point well said

 

[diCardinale]

Sales people. They are payed based on commission (typically). They get a percent of whatever you buy. Are they really going to have your best interest in mind or are they going to sell you the higher price items because they make more money. You feel cheated.

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If you feel cheated by sales people doing their jobs then like, don't buy from them? You're never obligated to even listen to their suggestions and blindly going with what they say is not being cheated at all, thats a failure on the side of the customer choosing convenience over doing some actual research into what you're trying to by, not the sales person.

I don't really have any other input, just thought that was a bad analogy that didn't really relate to what you're trying to say.

 

[SirePyro]

I think the welcome should stay, because even if it is shallow: for the less than welcoming players it has been their first step to actually helping someone out. It's almost a political awareness scheme and it gets everyone talking about it. Plus, now factions can LATCH onto new players. If you ever felt like being generous the alert message is right there. New players are invaluable and they're the key to managing massivecrafts improvements and simplifications.

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Did you copy/paste this from another one of your posts? I could swear I've read this before...

 

[grizenator]

The regal reward is stupid, like feedalways it promotes a passive lifestyle in which you never have to leave Regalia for anything. The spam is fine, I dont mind it. The regal reward for doing basically nothing should go.

 

[soapboxstage]

been relying on it for regals may end up leaving,

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The real downside is inflation - but even that is manageable

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No need to pay the person to do it, you should choose to welcome them if you want, not because you get some free money out of it.

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My major concern is the infastructural effect on the server. The main money sink right now is faction tax and regalian housing. I've heard this was the main cause of inflation in the old server, all the handouts and lack of money sinks. While this won't take major impact now, massive's currency degredated fast on the previous server, causing a few different changes in currency that a lot of Minecraft servers go through. And I'm no expert on the topic, I do feel this will occur eventually at this rate. 10 regals is a bit of money. Voting used to make you 1/5 of the average monthly regalian house in one day. Now you can make 5 times the regalian house rent in one day. Though, there are also positives present, such as increasing player retention and helping recruiting. The superficially aspect I've seen imoact one or two new players, but not of great extent.

I think we should compromise by simply decreasing the number of regals gained. This way, only those who really are welcoming or are really desperate will welcome people, and there will be less detriment to the currency.

 

[SirePyro]

MonMarty has stated that they will gradually remove the regal reward, and that they are using it to promote a habit, ie greeting new players. The economy was as screwy as it was because of a few factors, and lack of money sinks was not one, but even if it had been, it's not better now. The faction taxes have been removed. Voting rewards have been lowered. I don't rent houses in Regalia, so I can't speak as an expert, but I don't think most houses cost 2.4r to rent... You get 3r per voting site, and that times 4 voting sites is only 12r. No offense, but have you been on lately? It seems that you may be using pre-reset numbers and applying them here, but that just isn't the case. Furthermore, I'm not sure how exactly you plan to decrease the regal reward for welcoming players, as it stands at 5r last I checked. It has been for awhile... it was only 10r immediately after it came out, they changed that pretty quick. @quinguin

 

[soapboxstage]

5r last I checked. It has been for awhile... it was only 10r immediately after it came out, they changed that pretty quick

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sorry about that, I was under the assumption that it was standing at 10r. That's still a bit of a bit of money though. Greeting three people will get you a decent regalian home for a month. With voting on top of that, its a bit of free income each day. I mainly used regalian house prices as reference. On the old server, the average you could make off of voting/job isle was 10-40 regals, and the average home was about 80-110 regals. But, point being, that one can rack up quite a few regals. If we get 10 new players in 2 hours, that's 50 regals right there. That's enough for the average regalian home for around 2 months, made in one day. Whereas on the old economy, voting and job isle together made you maybe half a month in a day if you found a cheap home. I'm no economist though, that was simply my two cents. And yes, I think I was on last friday, and I hosted a roleplay event last satarday, so I've been on recently.

 

[SirePyro]

Ah. I thought you meant that one day's voting got you 5x what you needed. It is worth noting that not everyone is able to greet new players, and that no one can earn regals from it as often as voting. Furthermore, 5 regals really isn't that much. For roleplayers, whose expenses seem(to my untrained eye) somewhat limited, regals are more valuable. But in Essa, it's not the same. I have more than 3k, but I wouldn't come close to calling myself rich. Darkrooming is infinitely more valuable for players like me because it earns far more regals far more consistently and frequently. The way I look at the money, is that it's helpful, but most definitely not necessary. It's nice to have a little extra cash, but I can more than live without it. I've made nearly all my regals from grinding mobs in the DR, and I have no complaints.

 

[soapboxstage]

Ah. I thought you meant that one day's voting got you 5x what you needed. It is worth noting that not everyone is able to greet new players, and that no one can earn regals from it as often as voting. Furthermore, 5 regals really isn't that much. For roleplayers, whose expenses seem(to my untrained eye) somewhat limited, regals are more valuable. But in Essa, it's not the same. I have more than 3k, but I wouldn't come close to calling myself rich. Darkrooming is infinitely more valuable for players like me because it earns far more regals far more consistently and frequently. The way I look at the money, is that it's helpful, but most definitely not necessary. It's nice to have a little extra cash, but I can more than live without it. I've made nearly all my regals from grinding mobs in the DR, and I have no complaints.

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You make very good points, and we both have quite different reference in that I primarily roleplay. From my experience, very few regals are actually needed for roleplay aside from about 15-60 regals a month for housing. So, to me, making that 5 regals is quite large compared to the average money I need. But, as I see now, this is quite minuscule to the cost of running a large faction or bartering and whatnot, so I revert most of my claims. I still do worry about inflation, because often easier access to money and more money leads to less value of the money. And I did do some research back in the day about the inflation problems, being that money came into the economy very easily, but didn't leave often enough, via making money directly leave the market. But, as you mentioned earlier, it is a very complex problem and there are many factors in play that could be being unaccounted, so It would be unwise to make great decisions without bringing into account such factors. But, for plain worry, inflation should be considered in some way.

In terms of changing the reward, I believe that the idea of slowly lowering the value as you stated they intend on doing would be best. Therefore, we could grow the habit of welcoming and potentially train recruiters and whatnot to help new players find place in the server. But, I think overall, general discussion about this is important. It is quite valueble that we can discuss these things and we should proceed in whatever direction we choose causiously, and consult many different communities on the server.

 

[SirePyro]

You make very good points, and we both have quite different reference in that I primarily roleplay. From my experience, very few regals are actually needed for roleplay aside from about 15-60 regals a month for housing. So, to me, making that 5 regals is quite large compared to the average money I need. But, as I see now, this is quite minuscule to the cost of running a large faction or bartering and whatnot, so I revert most of my claims. I still do worry about inflation, because often easier access to money and more money leads to less value of the money. And I did do some research back in the day about the inflation problems, being that money came into the economy very easily, but didn't leave often enough, via making money directly leave the market. But, as you mentioned earlier, it is a very complex problem and there are many factors in play that could be being unaccounted, so It would be unwise to make great decisions without bringing into account such factors. But, for plain worry, inflation should be considered in some way.

In terms of changing the reward, I believe that the idea of slowly lowering the value as you stated they intend on doing would be best. Therefore, we could grow the habit of welcoming and potentially train recruiters and whatnot to help new players find place in the server. But, I think overall, general discussion about this is important. It is quite valueble that we can discuss these things and we should proceed in whatever direction we choose causiously, and consult many different communities on the server.

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Well, regals in Factions aren't as needed as much as they used to be, technically speaking, given that Faction Tax has been disabled. However, if you need anything you don't have, regals are the way to go. The MW regals are different, but the principle isn't different. You can fabricate regals out of nothing from killing monsters, and you can do so far more effectively than any other way of moneymaking I know of(short of just buying some). So, I'd say the concern of inflation is relatively minor, as it doesn't change a whole lot in the way of conjuring regals out of nothing, other than making it easier for players who may not understand how to get, make, or find a DR.

Personally, my view was that the reward should never have been in place, given the type of behavior it encourages, but that was before MonMarty said that it was their plan to have a reward only to have people become used to welcoming players and then slowly peter it out. I think that it's far from perfect, but it also isn't the "Oh no, this is going to destroy the server!" system some people seem to be assuming it is. I agree that a solid discussion is important, as I can see people on both sides not seeming to get why anyone wouldn't agree with them... not a healthy mindset to have if you're looking for change.

 

[VonZane]

I agree that the regal bonus needs to go, but the new player notification should stay. It low-key pisses me off when folks respond only for the 5r. Granted, there are those doing it for the sake of welcoming a new member, but there are those that do it for the 5r, and it genuinely pisses me off a bit. lol

 

[SirePyro]

Agreed. The notification message is an excellent system to have so people know if there's a newbie on who may need guidance, or so they can recruit them. Personally, I would welcome new players without the regal reward, but I would take the time to make it a real welcome, an intro, not just say "G:welcome" and forget about them. But I also know that those 5r stack up so I rush to get paid rather than taking the time to say anything else

 

[HeyitsNano]

Has anyone realized how different Massive is compared to other servers? The experience for a new player on Massive would takeaway that of a player getting disappointed. Not all people are going to be sad when they figure out their welcome was not meaningful, especially because who cares on Minecraft. Even in real life, you won't be emotional in the instance of someone saying welcome because another person whispered in their ear to do it.

 

[BornAsEpic]

APrader u dumb

 

[grizenator]

Has anyone realized how different Massive is compared to other servers? The experience for a new player on Massive would takeaway that of a player getting disappointed. Not all people are going to be sad when they figure out their welcome was not meaningful, especially because who cares on Minecraft. Even in real life, you won't be emotional in the instance of someone saying welcome because another person whispered in their ear to do it.

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"You only have friends because your mum pays them." pretty sure that would hurt.

 

[aprader1]

APrader u dumb

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Uh what? If you have an argument then say so. Other than that... please refrain from obvious verbal harassment.

 

[Hafermehl]

As much as I dislike the spam, no one is going to get offended that people are being paid to welcome them. They still got welcomed, and if they really think that far ahead and get upset about a few Regals then they should probably take a break from the game. Even after I found out people got paid, I was still warmly overwhelmed by the amount of people who welcomed me and privately messaged me telling me to message them if I needed help with anything.

 

[diCardinale]

15-60 regals a month for housing.

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Keep in mind that the current housing prices are so low right now due to Staff deciding that house refunds would not be given when Regalia v5 comes out. The price of housing will return to 80 or possibly even more in the new world.

 

[Lyee]

Has anyone realized how different Massive is compared to other servers? The experience for a new player on Massive would takeaway that of a player getting disappointed. Not all people are going to be sad when they figure out their welcome was not meaningful, especially because who cares on Minecraft. Even in real life, you won't be emotional in the instance of someone saying welcome because another person whispered in their ear to do it.

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I totally get what you're saying here, however-
The point is to make them feel welcomed, right? And even if finding out everyone was payed off doesn't make their day suck (which it seems is usually the case), it certainly still doesn't welcome them.

 

[SirePyro]

New APrader u dumb

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Bud, I think I speak for everyone here when I say... Say something meaningful or nothing at all. Agree or disagree with aprader or anyone else here, but don't get on just to sling mud without making any real arguments. That's just disrespectful to everyone.

 

[SirePyro]

The point is to make them feel welcomed, right? And even if finding out everyone was payed off doesn't make their day suck (which it seems is usually the case), it certainly still doesn't welcome them.

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Yes and no. There is a difference between welcoming them(and since there's a hundred people doing that anyways, they won't take much offense on that) and being their friend only for regals. If they find out that people spammed chat only for a little money, it seems more likely that they'd be disappointed in the players. A savvy new player would know something was up just because there is no server where welcoming new players happens on a scale like this... it just isn't done. It may highlight for them that the community is a teensy bit frivolous to be welcoming new players for a few regals, but... who cares? When they find out about that incredibly simple avenue for moneymaking, do you think they'll say "You know what? I'm actually not going to use this, I'm gonna go punch creepers till I'm rich!", or do you think they'll say "Oh, huh. Good to know. I guess I can get started with some money, then"? I apologize if this comes off as hostile, I really don't mean it like that. The point I'm trying to make is just that most players won't care very much, and the ones who do would probably quit after they got flamed for the first time or raided or something... this server can be pretty stressful for an inexperienced player(and even some experienced ones), so if they're gonna leave after they realize people like money... I mean, we haven't lost anything we could have kept anyways.

 

[Lyee]

Yes and no. There is a difference between welcoming them(and since there's a hundred people doing that anyways, they won't take much offense on that) and being their friend only for regals. If they find out that people spammed chat only for a little money, it seems more likely that they'd be disappointed in the players. A savvy new player would know something was up just because there is no server where welcoming new players happens on a scale like this... it just isn't done. It may highlight for them that the community is a teensy bit frivolous to be welcoming new players for a few regals, but... who cares? When they find out about that incredibly simple avenue for moneymaking, do you think they'll say "You know what? I'm actually not going to use this, I'm gonna go punch creepers till I'm rich!", or do you think they'll say "Oh, huh. Good to know. I guess I can get started with some money, then"? I apologize if this comes off as hostile, I really don't mean it like that. The point I'm trying to make is just that most players won't care very much, and the ones who do would probably quit after they got flamed for the first time or raided or something... this server can be pretty stressful for an inexperienced player(and even some experienced ones), so if they're gonna leave after they realize people like money... I mean, we haven't lost anything we could have kept anyways.

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I'm not sure we're disagreeing here. I think I worded my post poorly- what I meant in parentheses is that most new players I've seen don't give a crap about the money reward.

 

[SirePyro]

I'm not sure we're disagreeing here? I think I worded my post poorly- what I meant in parentheses is that most new players I've seen don't give a crap about the money reward.

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Ah. I guess so... well, this is awkward... I don't think I can make this post a paragraph long... Ah, forget it.

 

[HeyitsNano]

It's an aesthetic, and this is just opinion, but you never really see an entire server go wild right when you join it. I'm not sure new players would actually believe that majority of the server would really care to say welcome to them just because they joined, but it's a cool feature that you can get in game currency by welcoming a player. It may not fully express to the new player that players care, but that the server was made to welcome them when they join, regals or not.

 

[Lyee]

it's a cool feature that you can get in game currency by welcoming a player

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Honestly this is where I get tired of the "argument", and the reason why I've been avoiding this thread. Baseline, some people find it immoral to get money for it, and (most) others don't. Not something you can really change. A sort of... debate thread like this seems silly and doesn't seem to have really... gotten anywhere. But maybe I'm just not reading enough.

 

[soapboxstage]

The counterarguments (not that I know the actual steps for arguments) for this have been put down: it helps raise welcomes. So you're worried this will ruin the economy except this isn't the old economy. Just don't worry there's people conscious of balancing it now. I know you want a sheet and numbers and some economics guy to pop by here and say how we're doing but that's probably not going to happen. I'm sure there's a book on fictional economics. It sure is better than guessing. And my mom says "you should do nice things without asking anything in return" however not all people are built with kindness and this is a way to incentivize. Is your argument against being polite ungenuinely or the economy? Or both? I mean if you think about it nobody really wants to say please, thank you, and sorry to everyone they see but we do it because it's a correct first step. There's no limit to courtesy but false friends are different. So if this argument isn't able to be settled without economic studying and moral clearness then maybe you could propose another introductory system to new players? There are players who have a degree in this stuff but we can't throw a party until they come we just have to work around it.

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I do apologise for the very loose structured argument, and I do revert most of my claims. I think my major point is that we should consider all factors and consult every community before we make a change. I think at this point I don't really mind the regal reward, but I like the idea of slowly deintigrating the reward. I mentioned the inflation issues primarily just to throw ideas out there, but that has been addressed to a decent extent, and likely won't cause drastic detriment to the economy. Whatever may be, we should just be cautious and look at it from all viewpoints.

 

[SirePyro]

Honestly this is where I get tired of the "argument", and the reason why I've been avoiding this thread. Baseline, some people find it immoral to get money for it, and (most) others don't. Not something you can really change. A sort of... debate thread like this seems silly and doesn't seem to have really... gotten anywhere. But maybe I'm just not reading enough.

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You're not wrong. This thread most likely will not actually do anything for anyone, I just enjoy debating with other players, and besides, I just started posting messages and I felt like this was a good place to start. I genuinely have a good time debating and discussing with other players, even somewhat uselessly. However, I also think that trying to combat the notion that everything is going to hell is a worthy task. If players in the community are misinformed or stuck looking at the problem from a negative viewpoint, I don't consider it a waste of time trying to convince them otherwise... but maybe that's just me.

 

[Nammish]

Speaking as someone who's brought a few friends onto the server: no one I've had on with me that was greeted got upset that people were paid to greet them. They thought it was neat that the server rewarded people for being friendly, and that people knew they'd come on, said hello, and even instant messaged to give them pointers. One of two even got a flyby hello from a mod before I could port them over to the faction. And that may simply be the people I hang out with (cause you tend to hang with people who react to that sort of thing similarly to you), and they may be in the minority, but I feel like the reaction was telling all the same.

 

[HeyitsNano]

Yep, just like I assumed!