Of Rock Lizards, Bows And Vampires.

[Eccetra]

@Parz1vol
If crossbows are exactly the same in power as regular bows, as you say, then why does it matter if they are brought back or not? Just use the absolutely equal hand-drawn alternative. The fact that you are arguing to bring back a weapon that you claim to be directly identical to one already in lore infers that there is in fact a difference and that you want to use it for the power boon or dick-waving.

Just use a hand-drawn bow, man. Even if crossbows were returned for general use, it's expensive military hardware and shouldn't be available to sewer scum anyway. It's like everyone who inexplicably has a zweihander on them at all times. There's no point arguing over a single weapon when there are countless alternatives.

 

[Parz1vol]

ok but have you ever used a bow or a crossbow

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I have, actually. So. (Bow, not crossbow.)

if you're in a situation where your opponent has the opportunity to do this, your crossbow would be absolutely useless anyway, because it makes it pretty obvious the crossbow in this situation isn't loaded. so this is kind of a moot point

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Here then? This should make you happy. Crossbow strings can snap. That should be good enough for you.

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Oh! Oh! Hahaha! You. Your memes are dank. I get it. What a way to defeat someone's points of discussion.

Various videos displaying the effectiveness of armor against bows and crossbows.

Spoiler: Various Media

If crossbows are exactly the same in power as regular bows, as you say

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Don't misconstrue my argument. I can't even find where I said this, and if you can, and I said word for word crossbows are exactly the same in power as regular bows, know that it was an inaccurate statement.

it's expensive military hardware and shouldn't be available to sewer scum anyway

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Evidence please? You act like a crossbow is more than a bow set horizontally, balanced, tied with thicker string, and set to a crank.

The fact that you are arguing to bring back a weapon that you claim to be directly identical

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See my first statement towards you.

power boon or dick-waving.

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Should I mention the dick-waving of any weapon branded, "Coen Forged?" Because that's fairly dick-waving. So are zweihanders. Allow me to propose this, as well: Crossbows are weaker and less reliable due to how slow they are. Crossbows average 2 bolts a minute, while bows average 20 arrows a minute. There is nothing particularly dick-waving about crossbows, or any weapon in particular, really. They serve a purpose. That is the point. The crossbowman niche could be filled, but it's not. Neither is the bowman niche, and it's because of the environment around them, which can be corrected with proper revisions to the etiquette around the weapons.

EDIT: I'm re-clarifying. Have shot a bow, haven't shot a crossbow.

 

[_Grimmy_]

I have, actually. So. (Bow, not crossbow.)


Here then? This should make you happy. Crossbow strings can snap. That should be good enough for you.


Oh! Oh! Hahaha! You. Your memes are dank. I get it. What a way to defeat someone's points of discussion.

Various videos displaying the effectiveness of armor against bows and crossbows.

Spoiler: Various Media

Don't misconstrue my argument. I can't even find where I said this, and if you can, and I said word for word crossbows are exactly the same in power as regular bows, know that it was an inaccurate statement.


Evidence please? You act like a crossbow is more than a bow set horizontally, balanced, tied with thicker string, and set to a crank.


See my first statement towards you.


Should I mention the dick-waving of any weapon branded, "Coen Forged?" Because that's fairly dick-waving. So are zweihanders. Allow me to propose this, as well: Crossbows are weaker and less reliable due to how slow they are. Crossbows average 2 bolts a minute, while bows average 20 arrows a minute. There is nothing particularly dick-waving about crossbows, or any weapon in particular, really. They serve a purpose. That is the point. The crossbowman niche could be filled, but it's not. Neither is the bowman niche, and it's because of the environment around them, which can be corrected with proper revisions to the etiquette around the weapons.

EDIT: I'm re-clarifying. Have shot a bow, haven't shot a crossbow.

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You do realize how soft bulletproof vests work, right?

 

[Parz1vol]

You do realize how soft bulletproof vests work, right?

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That's why I had another crossbow one, Grimmy. Don't be juvenile.

 

[ScaledSupremacy]

Bolts aren't all that damaging.

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Don't wanna start more discussion but like. A crossbow bolt from the medieval ages could kill a plated target from a distance of 200 yards. This shit would rip your arm off if you were shot at close quarters. Tests on heavy crossbows indicate that they carried about as much kinetic energy as a 7.62mm NATO round at a distance of 100 yards or less, and while their energy would rapidly decline past that range, they could still be lethal to an armoured foe for a good distance more. Mind you, these were the heavier kind, but smaller crossbows aren't that far from it. And could certaintly still nail you to the wall through your ribcage. Granted the arrow was long enough.

 

[Magivore]

Vampires.
Zehler are pretty much the refined version of being screwed, they do have an ooc requirements but how is that different from a special permission past being harder to get.

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People were denied this permission because they didn't do community service, had one or two bad RP etiquette situations, and / or didn't include enough people. It's not handed out like candy, and at the moment, there are 2 out of 10,000 people that have been on MassiveCraft that have this permission. I don't have Ignace just so I can wave around how cool I am with glowing eyes and special powers, but I have him specifically so I can spark plots among generally stale sewer RP or establish some heavy force to be reckoned with among lone vigilantes and guards. I'm having a bit of trouble with it (it's not easy scaring people without power-gaming or having something I shouldn't), and I have been role-playing on MassiveCraft for almost 5 years now. In fact, a lot of my issues are stemming from because I'm trying to establish plots on my own when I need a lot more help and a lot more enemies to keep something going. I'm almost offended by this because it seems to imply that people can just be a Zehler for selfish reasons of being mighty, which is not at all the case. I can't even be a Zehler on my own, too! The page on the wiki itself says I need to have a coven, and as seen on the registry thread, this coven can't just sit together without including people outside of the group. I had to write a wiki page for the coven before even being able to use Ignace, which I then had to create an application that was balanced and put through much more scrutiny than most character applications. What do you mean by 'how is that different?' Please read the page and registry in-depth before making assumptions that, with how vague it currently is, insults those that have it.

TL;DR - Please read the page before assuming people with the Zehler permission just 'get it after more difficulty.' Zehler aren't made to be just a fun permission. They're made to challenge its user create mass plot-lines and connections between the sewers and surface; two worlds which are currently split right down the middle.

 

[Kibaa]

I have absolutely no clue as to why crossbows are considered tools of win rp when there are other weapons that are just as, if not more destructive than the crossbow, which requires even less time to operate. To me it just feels like the crossbow is purposely kept out of the loop simply due to ooc dislike for the weapon. The simple hand drawn bow is by far way more powergamey than a crossbow. Magic is BY FAR way more powergamey than the crossbow. While I'm sure everyone appreciated the magic rework(although there are some people that are against it) tons of people don't really think it's going to solve the 'oh I fireballed you to death in a single emote' problem. If weapons are a way to instigate character development, there really isn't a reason to exclude crossbows if the reasoning is that it's op, because compared to all the other horse excrement that can be used to kill or maim someone on this server, it's really not op. It's ridiculously underpowered, to be exact. I've fired both a bow and crossbow in real life, and while I won't use a simple personal experience of mine to justify an entire staff ruling, I just want to say that this assumption that the crossbow is a cancerous dick(as others seem to put it) , is kind of silly. Why are we so discriminatory against the poor crossbow :C

Well, I suppose that, thinking about it now,(disregard my first sentence in the first paragraph) it's possibly because of all the OOC spite and controversy that it brings(despite the logical ranking of a weapon's destructive capability rendering the crossbow as underpowered). I've been a part of said controversy in a situation several years ago and it wasn't fun. So. If the server is excluding crossbows because of OOC reasons, by all means do it. But if it's because it supposedly causes trouble IC, then the server has /alot/ of reconsidering to do.

 

[Parz1vol]

Don't wanna start more discussion but like. A crossbow bolt from the medieval ages could kill a plated target from a distance of 200 yards. This shit would rip your arm off if you were shot at close quarters. Tests on heavy crossbows indicate that they carried about as much kinetic energy as a 7.62mm NATO round at a distance of 100 yards or less, and while their energy would rapidly decline past that range, they could still be lethal to an armoured foe for a good distance more. Mind you, these were the heavier kind, but smaller crossbows aren't that far from it. And could certaintly still nail you to the wall through your ribcage. Granted the arrow was long enough.

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Indeed. They are deadly. Indeed, so are bows. I'll clarify my point. The way I phrased it was poor and misrepresented my goal with the statement.

I'd rather be shot by a crossbow in one minute, than be shot by a bow in one minute. Bows are more powergamey than crossbows, that was my point. That detail I made was inaccurate. Doesn't change my point. That also ignores all the other stuff that crossbows are less powerful than.

 

[Sozzer]

Oh! Oh! Hahaha! You. Your memes are dank. I get it. What a way to defeat someone's points of discussion.

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it's called a sense of humour
i understand that, being born without one, it may not be something you find easy to recognise
since you're expecting me to take this 100% seriously, why don't i give that a shot.

I have, actually. So. (Bow, not crossbow.)

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Then you should know you're spouting utter bullshit, particularly when saying bows are more dangerous (and bolts "[not] all that damaging"), as well as setting yourself up a nice wide safety net by throwing arrows - and, indeed, bows - into a single broad category.

Here then? This should make you happy. Crossbow strings can snap. That should be good enough for you.

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And this balances out the fact that someone with no training, no experience, and little physical strength can use one extremely easily and to almost certainly deadly effect with far easier concealment compared to a bow and the opportunity to charge into rp having it fully loaded... How, exactly?

Evidence please? You act like a crossbow is more than a bow set horizontally, balanced, tied with thicker string, and set to a crank.

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I'm sure this could work, assuming you don't mind losing a few fingers.

Crossbows are weaker and less reliable due to how slow they are. Crossbows average 2 bolts a minute, while bows average 20 arrows a minute. There is nothing particularly dick-waving about crossbows, or any weapon in particular, really. They serve a purpose. That is the point. The crossbowman niche could be filled, but it's not. Neither is the bowman niche, and it's because of the environment around them, which can be corrected with proper revisions to the etiquette around the weapons.

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Crossbows are, by nature, something that needs severe limitations to not be an instant "I pull out my crossbow and shoot you" weapon - limitations which are effectively impossible to enforce properly, and would be blatantly ignored as so many other such limitations are. If a weapon needs that much effort to keep it reasonably balanced, and it contributes effectively nothing to RP when used other than "you get hit and die or dodge and nothing happens", it isn't really worth using in the first place, especially when the crossbowman niche consists of anyone who can hold a crossbow and prepare it for firing.


And I'm not even going to bother with a full response to the videos, because if you think a longbow or any of its cousins is something you could use in a normal combat RP situation, anything I could say would go in one ear and out the other.

 

[_Grimmy_]

little physical strength

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Crossbows are hard to handle with out at least a little above avg strength level.

 

[Sozzer]

Crossbows are hard to handle with out at least a little above avg strength level.

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Assuming you aren't cocking it by hand, this isn't all that accurate.

 

[Parz1vol]

Crossbows are, by nature, something that needs severe limitations to not be an instant "I pull out my crossbow and shoot you" weapon - limitations which are effectively impossible to enforce properly, and would be blatantly ignored as so many other such limitations are. If a weapon needs that much effort to keep it reasonably balanced, and it contributes effectively nothing to RP when used other than "you get hit and die or dodge and nothing happens", it isn't really worth using in the first place, especially when the crossbowman niche consists of anyone who can hold a crossbow and prepare it for firing.


And I'm not even going to bother with a full response to the videos, because if you think a longbow or any of its cousins is something you could use in a normal combat RP situation, anything I could say would go in one ear and out the other.

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I'm going to not even bother reading this because I've already proposed reasonable changes in the combat role play etiquette in reference to ranged weapons.

Then you should know you're spouting utter bullshit, particularly when saying bows are more dangerous (and bolts "[not] all that damaging"), as well as setting yourself up a nice wide safety net by throwing arrows - and, indeed, bows - into a single broad category.

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I guess our experience disagrees, because I know bows are better.

little physical strength

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You're simple.

charge into rp having it fully loaded... How, exactly?

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Already proposed a functional change to the etiquette system.

I feel like the only reason you in particular are involved is because I got you T R I G G E R E D. You are a sewer role player, from what I've seen. Don't you run that Usque stuff that never went anywhere important aside from win-role play? Either way, you're making the same points that I've previously handled.

 

[_Grimmy_]

Assuming you aren't cocking it by hand, this isn't all that accurate.

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They're heavy and kind of hard to wield for your regular office worker.

 

[Parz1vol]

Assuming you aren't cocking it by hand, this isn't all that accurate.

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We're talking about crossbows, not arbalests.

 

[Sozzer]

I'm going to not even bother reading this because I've already proposed reasonable changes in the combat role play etiquette in reference to ranged weapons.

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Expecting players to effectively police other RPers is completely idiotic, and has never worked. When this was pointed out, you glossed over it.

I guess our experience disagrees, because I know bows are better.

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Truly, a genius argument.

You're simple.

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Personal insults aren't necessary. I'll cover this with the arbalest quote.

We're talking about crossbows, not arbalests.

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Crossbows that use rope cocking aids are not arbalests. And even then, an arbalest is a late form of crossbow that uses a steel prod. They aren't entirely different weapons.

I feel like the only reason you in particular are involved is because I got you T R I G G E R E D. You are a sewer role player, from what I've seen. Don't you run that Usque stuff that never went anywhere important aside from win-role play? Either way, you're making the same points that I've previously handled.

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Trying to rile me up and slinging personal comments around, as well as accusing me of being "triggered" is exactly the sort of behaviour that stops people wanting to deal with you. I got involved to make a joke, and you tried to turn it into a legitimate discussion, so I obliged. If you're going to take this attitude when you start having trouble coming up with further arguments, then I don't feel hugely interested in continuing the discussion.

 

[Aespair]

@Parz1vol @Sozzer
You both need to learn how to debate without flat out insulting the other person. The salinity levels of this thread have been steadily rising, partially due to the natural accusatory and aggressive air of the OP, but mostly because you two aren't adding anything valuable to the discussion other than flame toward each other.

This argument clearly isn't going anywhere anyways because of a certain stubbornness to admit one is wrong despite multiple people and staff members providing logical evidence and points against the defending argument.

Because of these two points, I'm locking this thread.