Necrothor Feedback - Why

[Conflee]

Firstly to start off, I have no major vested interest in Necrothors, im just pointing out a few, issues, that I think requiring Trustee for them causes.

Mainly, the fact that there is no character development to be had once you are a Necrothor. They are explicitly absurdly strong, absurdly stupid, brutes. They wont learn. They just punch.

Nobody will ever want to main a Necrothor, their existence is essentially to provide a cool tool for Death Mages to use, meaning they only come into Roleplay in specific situations. Usually fights, or specifically to facilitate fear RP in situations.

Locking this behind a Trustee perm just makes it infinitely harder for a Death Mage to find someone willing to play their one-off brute slave. Even with the buff to strength, nobody is going to bother with it anymore, making the Curse of the Chained a dead spell.


Basically what I am getting at is the lack of potential for character development, coupled with making it excessively hard to gain, makes the Necrothor essentially useless.

My solution? I would rather it revert back to as it was, but if it has to be behind a permission wall, Type B Trustee status should grant access to Necrothor. That way the bar is at least lowered slightly for entry. Though that still wont fix most of the issues, only mitigate them slightly.

 

[MonMarty]

The statement that you believe Necrothors have no Character Development potential implies you don't actually know what Character Development means, or understand the gameplay implementations of Necrothors.

 

[Conflee]

The statement that you believe Necrothors have no Character Development potential implies you don't actually know what Character Development means, or understand the gameplay implementations of Necrothors.

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I was a bit overzealous with "no", but I still cant see many ways to further a character that's excessively stupid and excessively strong. They feel more like one-offs than full, fleshed out characters. Though people say that about Lampar and I think you can work around their limits, so fair point. It still feels like it would be tedious and aggravating.

Regardless, I can't see anyone wanting to Main a Necrothor, especially with it being locked behind a permission.

 

[FireFan96]

Being a Necrothar is a curse. It is supposed to be a living nightmare of being forced to do things against your will, but being unable to control your actions.

Having these types of magical creatures is not supposed to be easy. Magic is supposed to be "mystical" and alarming to most Alorians.

I don't know what occurred to change the way Necrothars work, but I run the safe assumption that it's for the best to increase RP quality with everyone on the server.

 

[Lizmun]

I don't think that Necrathors should be locked behind trustee, per se, due to the simple fact it'd make it much harder to find a necrathior for death mages. Maybe only locked behind a special permission /w an approved app would be better.

 

[Wumpatron]

Just going to offer my own personal insight on this.

I would argue that someone would main a Necrothor on the pretense that someday they can have the spell removed by Celestial Magic and experience all of the trauma of having been one. Imagine the intense emotional development of having no control over your actions but remembering them vividly and being incapable of stopping them. Just that torment is intense to portray in a character. Probably lots of randomly breaking down in public crying because you were reminded you crushed someone's skull with your bare hand.

As for it being a Trustee permission, that is so that it isn't abused, because more often than not if you give something inhuman amounts of strength, and taking into account the Necrothar's inability to die from bloodloss, you fall into a situation where people will just fight and fight without wavering and not accept actions that would cause believable maiming and death to the Necrothar. It falls into the scenario of the unstoppable force, a perpetual juggernaut because people get caught up with being a hulking behemoth that can beat people into submission that they forget about basic weaknesses and plausible damage.

In short, Necrothor's are incredible in terms of development should someone get healed, and as for the Trustee permissions, people like to go beyond what is possible and not sacrifice maim/kill perms or lose when it is acceptable. The solution is quite simply find someone with a Trustee permission to play the expendable Necrothar, but then caution should be had as not everyone is aware of physical limitations and even a trusted person could mistakenly take a lot of damage before faltering, if even.

 

[Conflee]

Being a Necrothar is a curse. It is supposed to be a living nightmare of being forced to do things against your will, but being unable to control your actions.

Having these types of magical creatures is not supposed to be easy. Magic is supposed to be "mystical" and alarming to most Alorians.

I don't know what occurred to change the way Necrothars work, but I run the safe assumption that it's for the best to increase RP quality with everyone on the server.

Click to shrink...

I don't think that Necrathors should be locked behind trustee, per se, due to the simple fact it'd make it much harder to find a necrathior for death mages. Maybe only locked behind a special permission /w an approved app would be better.

Click to shrink...

These two first: Necrothor are already hard to get because they have to be made IC. And there is only one singular played Death Mage. So it's pretty rare to begin with without requiring permissions to limit it. Dong said something to the effect in their reply too.

As for locking it behind a permission, that would work a little better but it would need to be easy to get in contact with staff to work it out. Adding convoluted layers to having to deal with something just makes nobody want to mess with it.

In short, Necrothor's are incredible in terms of development should someone get healed, and as for the Trustee permissions, people like to go beyond what is possible and not sacrifice maim/kill perms or lose when it is acceptable. The solution is quite simply find someone with a Trustee permission to play the expendable Necrothar, but then caution should be had as not everyone is aware of physical limitations and even a trusted person could mistakenly take a lot of damage before faltering, if even.

Click to shrink...

As for this, generally speaking anything could be misused, even if not locked behind a permission or if its not written to be powerful. Look at all the edgy vampire gods we used to have to deal with (which seems to have thankfully been a fad). If abuse takes place with something in lore, unless it is massively wide spread and occurs repeatedly with different offenders, I dont think nerfing the entire thing is the right answer. Punishing people who broke the rules with it is.

Massive, in general in my opinion, has a tendency to perform (seemingly) knee-jerk reactionary nerfs on things when simpler solutions, like individual punishment as I said, is more fitting. Thats me looking in from the outside though, so I wont act like I know the whole picture, that's just how it tends to look.

 

[Wumpatron]

As for this, generally speaking anything could be misused, even if not locked behind a permission or if its not written to be powerful. Look at all the edgy vampire gods we used to have to deal with (which seems to have thankfully been a fad). If abuse takes place with something in lore, unless it is massively wide spread and occurs repeatedly with different offenders, I dont think nerfing the entire thing is the right answer. Punishing people who broke the rules with it is.

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Anything can and is misused, even when it is not written to be powerful, you are correct. But the Necrothor /is/ written to be quite powerful. And given its written strengths it is very easier for people to unintentionally powergame them, even while holding trustee permissions. In this instance, what I am trying to explain, is that it cannot be done on a case by case basis as it falls into a grey area where the portrayal can be powergamed without someone noticing. Trustee holders we trust to not powergame or abuse their permissions, because when that occurs it becomes a case by case basis of revoking permissions for abuse. There is a way to lose something. In a general case by case basis, it becomes a slap on the wrist and telling them they are powergaming, which can be abused again later. There is no real punishment that can be delivered.
And contrary to the beliefs of some, people enjoy power trips and living power fantasies, which the Necrothor can provide.

 

[Erzly]

I don't think that Necrathors should be locked behind trustee, per se, due to the simple fact it'd make it much harder to find a necrathior for death mages. Maybe only locked behind a special permission /w an approved app would be better.

Click to shrink...

I agree. Not to mention the fact that they're pretty dependant on the Death mage, who already has to be trustee and can monitor powergaming, smoothing it out and such themselves.
Clocktiks aren't trustee, so I believe the same rule should apply for Necrothor, as both are reliant on roleplaying with a trustee that trusts you enough with their characters anyway.

 

[FireFan96]

Clocktiks aren't trustee, so I believe the same rule should apply for Necrothor, as both are reliant on roleplaying with a trustee that trusts you enough with their characters anyway.

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Clockticks have no practicality besides commentary, nor are they required to be portrayed by another player (I just type <Clocktick> to have it speak, for example.)
The only exception is once Engram 9 is learned, and even then the Techmage does not have to create a humanoid body for his clocktick.

Digression aside, Necrothars are a completely different person when comparing them to a clocktick, which is essentially a fragment of the mage itself.

 

[Erzly]

<Clocktick>

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I only meant the players playing them side, to clear it up.

 

[Wumpatron]

I agree. Not to mention the fact that they're pretty dependant on the Death mage, who already has to be trustee and can monitor powergaming, smoothing it out and such themselves.
Clocktiks aren't trustee, so I believe the same rule should apply for Necrothor, as both are reliant on roleplaying with a trustee that trusts you enough with their characters anyway.

Click to shrink...

Just a brief counter, the Cloktiks are not capable for combat in any fashion, which means they cannot be utilized in the same manner as the Necrothor. I also extend that to the Golems since I'm no expert on clockwork magic and I see no need to cite the page, but as it stands the combat capabilities of the Necrothor is capable of abuse, both intentional and unintentional. My previous replies stand for my reasoning on matters, so I have nothing further to contribute to this thread.

 

[MonMarty]

We already decided on a two part modification of the Death Magic spell yesterday during the meeting, I was just too tired after writing the Ithanian lore and all the edits and the meetings to push it through.

It doesn't address any of the feedback in here, largely because I don't just disagree with it, I think all the argumentation is badly founded, especially by OP who still doesn't understand that Character Development isn't a solitary self-deployed concept, but a concept that can be shared to third parties and thus become a product of a vessel, in this particular case the Necrothor in question.

I am locking this thread now while I deploy the second half of the spell.