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Character Imprisonment

Silent_Ruler

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Hey everyone!

To get us started, I'd like to define character imprisonment as any state which the player might find themselves in when they are unable to play their character, be it they be in a cell, kidnapped, or otherwise taken hostage.

As a player particularly fond of playing as criminals, it has been the event that time and time again, especially during vacations, I've personally not been able to make the most of my free time because of these situations. I have been witness to day or even week long time-outs, by which then the weekend or vacation season is over, having had only a very limited window of time I actually had used to roleplay. From what I gather, I'm far from being the only one.


While OOC imprisonments have improved in that they've considered this and therefore made the waiting time a mere 15 minutes, when you are taken hostage by players, no such rule exists.

My question is:
  • What are characters supposed to do in the meantime?
  • What can be done to correct this constantly resurfacing inconvenience?
Feel free to discuss below!

@Kibaa @Anseran

@Lore
 
perhaps the time extension should apply to players as it does the guards, and then the actual capture period can be timeskipped or put in the past like with normal arrests.
 
To the Kidnapped:
-Don't get kidnapped/go into sewers alone.
-Don't make enemies if you don't want prison rp or people hurting your charater.
-Try to make the best out of being captured by providing fun roleplay.

To the Holder:
-Don't keep them for more than two ooc days. Just rp a lot those two days or timeskip if you must.
-Don't keep them in a cell but simply say the doors of a house are locked so they can rp in an area.
-Respect wishes and talk to each other. No one is happy being held prisoner for to long so talk.
 
It's true that being held against your will can be troublesome, specially when you're the innocent victim and not the culprit.

However, there's a certain guideline or two that everyone needs to remember when engaging in criminal rp as the culprit.
As a criminal roleplayer, you must be completely ready to accept the consequences of any crime you may commit at any given time. It is important to consider both the IC and OOC circumstances and consequences that may occur during a criminal heist.

I can't tell you how many times I've rushed into what I thought was a good plan, without considering any risks or checking without anyone oocly, and then having our entire situation completely backfire because of poor planning and a lack of consequential awareness.

tl;dr Yes it may be frustrating to be held captive, but it's important to analyze your ambitions to know just what can get you rendered as a captive, and how to prepare for it.
 
There could be support policy whereby if you know that you cannot supply roleplay to prisoners, you don't have much right in taking them for an extended period of time such as a whole day or two, three or four.

It's important to consider that OOCly, these people are not real criminals and they want to have fun roleplay just as you do. Criminal roleplay is also instigation roleplay; it can seem random and can deal damage but it usually provides some mass gatherings as people question or attack the antagonist. Taking the person behind the screen and punishing them for what they enjoy isn't a great model. No one wants to wait countless hours knowing their character is incapable of anything.
 
Catch 22.
The other day my main oc Lazaruz who is your stereotype sorta hero save the day guy and his friend followed this girl with the two people she had kidnapped to her base.

They went upstairs past a trapdoor
We then got inside. however they told us OOC that it was unfair we moved up there. I respected that.
So I was left to wait for practically two hours OOC downstairs just sometimes saying a thing like "Please let them out, I beg you!"

They ignored me OOC too for ages.
I mean, yes i could tp out but that just breaks rp right?

No hard feelings to those people if you read this :)
 
This is mostly formed from my opinion which may not reflect regulation soon, considering @LumosJared took over leadership. Maybe he has a more cohesive statement to make on the matter.

When you play a criminal character, you sort of already have the general understanding that at some point, someone is going to come around and poop on you simply because of the added risk and because of what you are inflicting onto others. If we're talking about personal experiences, it's because in many situations characters should logically be allowed to kill a criminal, but cannot, and the only other alternative they have is long term incarceration.

The problem doesn't lie in the imprisonment, rather, the problem lies in the criminal role player not wanting to accede to logical consequences of their actions. There is a dichotomy in the kill perms in that one can only gain kill perms if a person directly raises a weapon with intent to kill. This means, that for example, a character can currently poison a water well, potentially causing dozens of characters to suffer cholera and death, but get away without consequences because the implied action does not correspond with the requirements for kill perms. You understand the point I am getting at here.

Lets use a practical example: Lorenzo gets caught trying to poison a wall, or has in the past weeks been attempting to get a large group of rebels arrested, imprisoned and potentially executed, maimed or tortured. The intent to harm is there, the risk is there, but the direct act is not. Lorenzo is using third party means to achieve his goals without directly raising a sword. Therefor, the group can never harm Lorenzo without direct consent from the player, you, which you refuse to give in any and all circumstances.

The imprisonment thus becomes a "compromise solution", in which the players you are inflicting this roleplay upon, take satisfaction in this trade off to satiate their need for "an equal parts in roleplay". Roleplay, unless you actively start treating other players as background characters in your story, should always be a trade-off between two parties attempting to generate a plot while satisfying all participants that they have had a satisfactory participation in a way that is fitting and enjoyable to them.

What this whole point argues, is that the burden of self entertainment, is actually not the job of the jailers, but entirely the job of the jailee. You are robbing them of the logical desired outcome of the roleplay you forced onto them, which in my opinion, derives you of the right to make moral objection to the compromise solution. If at any point along this process you place the burden of entertainment on the jailors, (along the lines of complaining that it is taking too long, or wanting them to provide you with a quick resolution), you would actually be appealing to the often unspoken secondary aspect of powergaming: dictating other's actions through OOC means.

TL;DR or Ergo, my conclusion in short that summarizes my opinion: Any criminal character that gets imprisoned as the consequence of roleplay between player and player, should be happy that they get imprisoned and not outright killed. Players imprisoned by the server sanctioned law enforcement are given rights (such as a max time imprisonment etc.) because we as server are not a contractual player in this matter in terms of finding a "compromise solution". When it concerns player versus player actions, some action you incurred on another player had the outcome effect of the imprisonment. As such, the imprisonment and to all extents that it is suffered, is your payment to ensure you do not force powergaming aspects onto others.

There is a small but in this scenario: Some people are super unreasonable. Say for example you stole someone's cookie and you get imprisoned in their house for two weeks without much roleplay because they just sit in the tavern all day. In such cases you should contact a lore staff member to mediate, but not force an outright ending of the imprisonment. Lore staff will not save you from not having to suffer the consequences of your conflict-rp. Rather they will just find a median solution to satisfy both parties.
 
Lorenzo gets caught trying to poison a wall,
@Suzzie

The results of this PQ were incorrect in that the instructions mentioned Hostess, but the title said Rothburg because of a mix-up on the submitters behalf. As for the characters suffering cholera and disease, it would likely not be roleplayed out by people, whereas in which case my lack of ability to roleplay is not a proportional "punishment". Furthermore, player quests themselves also have the capability of determening consequences, and even further, in my particular case, I have gotten a maim for every major encounter. I'm not painting my characters as invincible. This isn't about me specifically, though, but about everyone that goes through a similar thing.

I am not forcing a release of my chatacter. I am trying for a way to be able to roleplay be presented so that the "compromise solution" is less of an OOC punishment than and IC punishment. This is also not about me, but about a problem which I keep encountering constantly - as do others. I'm merely using myself as an example, because being suspended from roleplay for long waiting periods at a time has started to get annoying.

As for the other solutions I have read over in other posts:
  • I disagree with a solution being "don't get caught".
  • I disagree with a solution being "don't make enemies to avoid being put in prison".
This, because it is basically saying "delay the inevitable consequences of your characters criminality", which may be employed by people as a motive to powergame out of situations. This brings me to the other point:

This is not a matter of players not agreeing to, as criminal characters, face the consequences of their actions. That's because accepting imprisonment in and of itself already a consequence. Furthermore, the consequence should be an IC matter that doesn't obstruct playability OOC, which long OOC player unplayability periods don't further. Anseran put it nicely:
There could be support policy whereby if you know that you cannot supply roleplay to prisoners, you don't have much right in taking them for an extended period of time such as a whole day or two, three or four.

It's important to consider that OOCly, these people are not real criminals and they want to have fun roleplay just as you do. Criminal roleplay is also instigation roleplay; it can seem random and can deal damage but it usually provides some mass gatherings as people question or attack the antagonist. Taking the person behind the screen and punishing them for what they enjoy isn't a great model. No one wants to wait countless hours knowing their character is incapable of anything.


Which brings me to the whole point of this thread:

What can be done about excessively long imprisonments (OOC) that obstruct the playability of your character?

What can be done so that players get their "compromise solution" without outright rendering a character unplayable for a time?
 
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Once my character, Vincenzo Gasparian, kidnapped Cecil ( @Streako 's char). He kept imprisoned for some weeks, and when I couldn't log on, I told Streako that he could just leave, but he didn't, because he was having fun. I found a better solution, my character released him and forced Cecil to bring gold and wealth to my char, at the end, Cecil suffered a lot of both physical and mental pain, which ended in him going kind of insane, and Vincenzo releasing after.
The point is, character imprisonment should provide fun to all involved.
 
Once my character, Vincenzo Gasparian, kidnapped Cecil ( @Streako 's char). He kept imprisoned for some weeks, and when I couldn't log on, I told Streako that he could just leave, but he didn't, because he was having fun. I found a better solution, my character released him and forced Cecil to bring gold and wealth to my char, at the end, Cecil suffered a lot of both physical and mental pain, which ended in him going kind of insane, and Vincenzo releasing after.
The point is, character imprisonment should provide fun to all involved.
Even then, it was weeks. Sometimes, weeks extends way past vacation season/weekends.
I'll add my own input to this, as I've actually had this problem occur to me thrice over the past couple months. Tuti, yours was really a minor case-- All parties involved were trying to be active through all of it, and ultimately it was poor timing that screwed us over. You really did your best, and thank you for both the awesome roleplay and the consideration you showed both then and now.
That said, I will be using you as an anechdotal example alongside my two other experiences with people that will remain unnamed for sake of privacy and to avoid meta-- I'll keep my tone positive, don't worry! :)

Going off of what Tuti said, imprisonment should be a fun and interesting part of roleplay, and I (a little too actively, to be honest) seek it out due to the conflict it causes and the number of people that can be drawn in. That said, there are certain situations that inherently suck major dong for imprisonment. I feel that, in general, if imprisoning another player's character occurs as a reaction rather than an action (that is, you more or less think it up on the spot, instead of plan it or have a strong reason for it), it will result in contrived, boring roleplay for both parties involved-- even if the Victim is fully consenting to the imprisonment. The reason for this is that a reaction will never have a longterm plan, and as such the Villain will not know what to do with their prisoner. Anechdotally, I have two examples-- Tuti, to a minor degree, and another person who abducted my Saivalthar, Belar, with all the right intent but none of the right reasons.

Briefly, Tuti's vampire got high on my Shendar's (Cecil's) blood and more or less had a night on the town with my Shendar, who was incapacitated due to blood-loss. In-character events precipitated Cecil being abducted for a short while-- And then Tuti had the idea to force Cecil to steal for him. The real problem came later when Cecil disobeyed, which resulted in what should have been a brief exchange that was unfortunately drawn out.

A seperate instance occurred when Belar began desperately banging on the gate of the old Nenyarina base, believing that Chrysalis was inside. A passerby happened to see the events unfolding, and in order to stop her, he knocked her out and imprisoned her in his base to detox. I promptly could not find the fellow for the rest of the week-long period of detox-- And I mean an OOC week.

Both instances suffer from a similar problem, the second much worse than the first: A lack of premeditation. The point of roleplay is to weave a story, and any action that takes place in a story should have some sort of narrative value. Abducting a person with no reason other is a meaningless gesture-- You can't just think of what comes before and what happens during, you must also think of what comes after the abduction. How do you give it more meaning? How do you ensure that everyone involved is getting something of narrative value for this investment? Why are you imprisoning someone? Is it for a ransom? Is it for vengence? It better be good, because by disconnecting that character from the world, you become in essence their lifeline to the world-- You stand in for an entire world of lore that's been in constant development for years, as well as the hundreds of players that enact that lore everyday. You must find a way to make imprisonment so worthwhile for the victim that they are happy to be taken away from that world. The only way I can perceive this is by having a particular motive and need from the imprisoned. You force them to be with you, so you need to make sure you're interesting enough to be with. Perhaps parade them around, or arrange a 'chance meeting' with someone who knows the victim while moving them from one location to another.

Tl;dr-- By kidnapping someone, you make an unspoken promise to make their time away from the world as valuable as that world, if not moreso. Roleplay's all about story archs. If you're not furthering an arch, then you're wasting everyone's time. Have a good reason for kidnapping someone, and make sure they have a reason for sticking around other than "I'm being held against my will". Everyone should have a stake in imprisonment.
 
To the Kidnapped:
-Don't get kidnapped/go into sewers alone.
-Don't make enemies if you don't want prison rp or people hurting your charater.
-Try to make the best out of being captured by providing fun roleplay.

To the Holder:
-Don't keep them for more than two ooc days. Just rp a lot those two days or timeskip if you must.
-Don't keep them in a cell but simply say the doors of a house are locked so they can rp in an area.
-Respect wishes and talk to each other. No one is happy being held prisoner for to long so talk.
and what if you walk in and five people are waiting in your house, threaten to report you if you don't let them kidnap you, and then torture your character, none of which you want to RP out or RP the aftermath of?

sometimes OOC causes cause people to be strongly against RPing things like slavery or kidnapping because they don't want to play their characters that way, or OOC being unable to handle RPing be aftermath of that character, whether you play the character or IC have a relation to them. this can depend on lots of things such as the IC relationship between the two players, the OOC relationship beteeen the two players, and just the topic. some things people cannot handle to RP with anyone, or discuss much, and it's the other players' responsibility to respect that.
 
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To address your questions, @Silent_Ruler
  • What are characters supposed to do in the meantime?
I rather enjoyed Streako's commentary on this, if you're looking a longer study on the matter. But taking from it, both jailor and jailee are weaving a narrative in this rp. It is as much the jailee's responsibility as the jailers to provide entertainment and a constructive narrative. If you feel your captor isn't meeting you halfway, simply contact lore staff. When my own character was imprisoned, I got a lot out of writing as them. I rarely released it, but thinking on what's running through my character's mind in that dire situation is a joy I personally get out of it. We'll discuss and come mediate the issue if you have one, but the responsibility of building a narrative is on the jailee first.
  • What can be done to correct this constantly resurfacing inconvenience?
Odd question. There's the individual solution as to Lorenzo's criminal rp (which is another can of worms I'm afraid), but I think we're more concerned here about imprisonment rp, how it correlates to the current death rules, and naming specific situations as exceptions to all of those rules (both written and as of today, unwritten). I'm going to keep eyes on the arguments made here and have a more detailed announcement in the coming days. If that's not immediate enough to settle the Lorenzo issue, contact me and I'll come mediate the situation. Or ideally, build off a narrative with your captor.
 
@Suzzie

The results of this PQ were incorrect in that the instructions mentioned Hostess, but the title said Rothburg because of a mix-up on the submitters behalf. As for the characters suffering cholera and disease, it would likely not be roleplayed out by people, whereas in which case my lack of ability to roleplay is not a proportional "punishment". Furthermore, player quests themselves also have the capability of determening consequences, and even further, in my particular case, I have gotten a maim for every major encounter. I'm not painting my characters as invincible. This isn't about me specifically, though, but about everyone that goes through a similar thing.

I am not forcing a release of my chatacter. I am trying for a way to be able to roleplay be presented so that the "compromise solution" is less of an OOC punishment than and IC punishment. This is also not about me, but about a problem which I keep encountering constantly - as do others. I'm merely using myself as an example, because being suspended from roleplay for long waiting periods at a time has started to get annoying.

As for the other solutions I have read over in other posts:
  • I disagree with a solution being "don't get caught".
  • I disagree with a solution being "don't make enemies to avoid being put in prison".
This, because it is basically saying "delay the inevitable consequences of your characters criminality", which may be employed by people as a motive to powergame out of situations. This brings me to the other point:

This is not a matter of players not agreeing to, as criminal characters, face the consequences of their actions. That's because accepting imprisonment in and of itself already a consequence. Furthermore, the consequence should be an IC matter that doesn't obstruct playability OOC, which long OOC player unplayability periods don't further. Anseran put it nicely:



Which brings me to the whole point of this thread:

What can be done about excessively long imprisonments (OOC) that obstruct the playability of your character?

What can be done so that players get their "compromise solution" without outright rendering a character unplayable for a time?
First, I just want to say that the wiki page on player quests specifically mentions imprisonment as a possible outcome, which means you should have known what you signed up for. And considering that the desired outcome of the quest was the death of hundreds of people and the infection of even more, I think that being imprisoned is a perfectly logical consequence of the quest. Think about it logically; what would have happened if Aloria was a real place and this same event happened and Lorenzo was caught? He would be imprisoned if he wasn't killed in the attack.

I was going to say more but I believe the point of what you can do while imprisoned was already covered by others on this thread.
 
First, I just want to say that the wiki page on player quests specifically mentions imprisonment as a possible outcome, which means you should have known what you signed up for. And considering that the desired outcome of the quest was the death of hundreds of people and the infection of even more, I think that being imprisoned is a perfectly logical consequence of the quest. Think about it logically; what would have happened if Aloria was a real place and this same event happened and Lorenzo was caught? He would be imprisoned if he wasn't killed in the attack.

I was going to say more but I believe the point of what you can do while imprisoned was already covered by others on this thread.
Imprisonment wasn't the outcome of the quest, and if you read the quest, the results were erroneous in that it was directed at Hostess, not Rothburg. This isn't about me, though. It's about everyone else who goes through something like it.